I understand Bronzesnakes comment here. Whether you intended it as such or not is the question but the usage of "Christian Zionists" in the context that you used it can definitely be construed as a derogatory, hatefilled and prejudicial statement. It is a term used by most radical anti-semite and anti-christian muslims in the same manner.

With respect, I was first attacked, then called black hearted for posting accurate information. There is a strong current in Christian Zionist thought that trivialises the sufferings of many people and exaggerate the suffering of Jews, and McVay knew exactly what I was talking about. I freely admit it could have been construed as derogatory, but deny it was hate-filled.

Let me also draw you attention to the fact that I said basically that he didn't know what he was talking about, but didn't attack his spiritual condition, like he did with me.

While I think the modernistic theology of Christian Zionism is dangerous, I think that most people who hold these views are well-meaning and generally "pillars" of our community.

Best regards
Tim

Yes, I keep bees. Did you know that the Bible say that honey brings joy to the soul and health to the bone?

Here are some of my bees

http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/bees

And my kids help me with the hobby, and have fun goofing off with them.

Actually, it is. Think of the parable of the dowry coins, and the song of Solomon. Fancy braided hair is spoken against, but costly raiment is fine. Think also of the Priest's breast plates.

Red in tooth and claw!

But I can't resist collecting these plants. Here are some pics of my collection

http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/plants

and of my bees

http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/bees

I know you are an atheist, but to me, having worked all my life in one sort of agriculture or another, it takes more faith to believe in evolution than in creationism.

Well I don't have a problem with war per se, and there are a couple wars we've fought in the past that pass the "just war" litmis test (one against an Arab power), but this current foreign adventure well be seen in the future as every bit as bad as what the Nazi's and Commies did in the middle of the last century.

If you don't agree, fine. We each have one vote at the polls.

Tom, there (currently) doesn't seem to be much differences between the Republican and Democrats on this issue. They both want the Federal Government's powers radically expanded.

There is a difference between Cheney and Bush, however, with Cheney seeing it the traditional conservative way, and Bush holding to the more modern "big government" philosophy.

Symphony makes a very good point. As James says, don't blame wars and strife on the Devil, they come from the human heart.

I really don't mind the black hearted stuff, as long as things are done in accordence with historic, western standards of scholarship. Snake posted a link in haste, and conceded it was a mistake, so whatever. I could care less about an apology.

Do you have any questions about the subject?

My opionion....We did the right thing by going into Iraq....Yours....I have been manipulated into accepting the war.  Not sure what grounds you have for telling me what I believe, but I can live with your opinion as easily as I live with my own.  Can you?

Yes, since my view are based in traditional American conservative ideals.

I would resist getting into a war with Syria, NK, Zim, Belarus, etc..I think that if the neocons whipped up emotion against Iran, Syria, or any other small and relatively helpless country you would have been just as enthusiastic to invade those countries. I firmly believe that the fact that Christians had it better under the Ba'athist regime in Iraq than in North Korea wouldn't have influenced you at all.

As for Zimbabwe and the other situations you have mentioned plus a few that you haven't, I am righteously angered that nothing has been done and I have voiced my opinion on that appropriately with the proper people.

Roger, you are a consitant man, and I must appologize for saying you aren't. I radically disagree with your basic premise, and see your thinking on this issue as very dangerous to this Republic, but I admire your consistancy.

I would rather admit I'm wrong about what percentage of Jews may or may not have died inside the death camps, than be a person who spends his time and energy minimizing the numbers to satisfy his anti-Semite appetite.

I said I was a moderator on a WW2 warcrimes site. Why do you think I spend my time on Jews? For every one Jew murdered there were 6-8 Slavs murdered during that time. Why do you assume I have no interest on other casualties?

There is nothing more profound in the 6 million Jewish dead than in the 24 million Russian dead. There is nothing more significant in the 6 million Jewish dead than in the 8 million Ukrainian dead. There is nothing more sad about the 6 million Jewish dead than the 3 million Polish dead.

So I have a black heart for not accepting your wild exaggerations? Get real. This whole exchange started when I simply, and without negative speech corrected an obvious mistake in your figures. You responded sharply, and now here we are.

It's all a completely moot issue. Jesus Christ is LORD over all days, and Jesus Christ is our Sabbath Rest 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. One doesn't need a calendar or an appointment to pray and worship Jesus.

Tom I agree, and go back to my original post, when I said that the Lord's Day is basically public, in the sense that a basically God honoring, or nowdays at least a culture that has been influenced by Christianity sets aside a day of rest.

What really sickens me about people like you is the anti - Semitic tone which comes frothing forth out of your mouths and in the way you minimize and belittle the death of so many innocent people simply because they are Jewish.

Yawn. I was right and now I'm an antiSemite. You grossly exaggerated the number of Jewish deaths, so what do that make you?

Oh, what do you think of Hilberg's 5.1 and Reitlinger's 4.6 million figure? In your world does that make two of the most respected Jewish holocaust historians antiSemites?

Once the Beth Din had evidence that the new moon had been seen, (see FIXING THE CALENDAR) a new month was declared to have started, and people would know when to observe festivals. Some were informed by chains of beacons and signal fires; but this system was sabotaged by the Samaritans who lit fires on the wrong nights.8. Then messengers were sent to other towns and villages; 9. but by the time of the Roman period, Jews were living throughout the Roman Empire. Eventually it was decreed that Jews outside of Palestine should observe extra days of festivals in order to be sure of observing the correct date.

Even in Israel where only one day was observed, their system only worked for festivals which occurred in the middle of a month. As Rosh Hashanah fell on the 1st of Tishri they could not wait for an announcement before starting to celebrate New Year's Eve. So they kept two days of Rosh Hashanah.10. So today Jews in Israel observe two days Rosh Hashanah and only one day of other festivals. While Orthodox Jews outside Israel add extra days for festivals. Most Reform and Liberal, who believe that there is no longer any doubt about the calendar dates, follow the Israeli practice.

http://www.rigal.freeserve.co.uk/jewish/calendar/jcalendar2.htm
There are thousands of references. What, do you think that your small band has been given knowledge hidden to the vast majority of Christians who've lived over the centuries?

I contacted the head of Nizkor and here is his reply

> Hello Mr. McVay
>
> I thought that you should know that one of those Christian
> Zionists is quoting the Nizkor Project to support his contention
> that the 3 million murdered Polish Jews are not counted in the 6
> million figure. Here's what he writes:

They are included, as even a quick survey of existing data
demonstrates.

> Perhaps you should invest some time at the following site...
>
> http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html
>
> Of course, I don't think you'll like it - there's no German
> crosses there! The six million deaths attributed as a direct
> result of the death camps are legitimate. These numbers were
> legitimized by survivors and wittiness accounts. If you lost your

No one has claimed all 6 million died in death camps - that is
simply not true. The Einsatzgruppen, for instance, murdered about
1.2 million Jews (and Soviet Moslems thought to be Jews) at places
like Babi Yar, where 33000 were murdered and buried in a single
weekend.

Thanks for the note,
Ken