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I'm beginning to think that fear, is the one single most contributing factor, behind the Rapture theory.

Christ warned people 4 times about the 2nd coming of Christ, (Matthew 24.....'Be Not Deceived')...and yet the Christian world acts as though they never read a single word he said.

No one can base their theory of the secret rapture on what the Bible teaches, because....it is not there !

There is no secret return of Jesus Christ......there is no 7 year Tribulation period, either.

I am quoting this so you can't change your post later.

I think you need to study your Bible. With this statement, you have just admitted you are trying to cause trouble.
The Bible says it, I believe it.

Acts 1:9   And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  
  1:10   And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;  
  1:11   Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven".
 
QUESTION: Did they see him go up into the cloud ?
   The Bible verse says.....that they saw him go....and the verses says that Jesus will return the same way....visibly.


Now,
 1 Thessalonians  4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  
  4:17   Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

QUESTION: Does it seem to you that Jesus comes again secretly, from these verses ?


Again:
  24:30   And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  
  24:31   And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  

QUESTION: 'ALL' ....the tribes of the earth shall mourn?
   Who doesn't see Christ returning from these Bible verses ?

 Yes, I am causing trouble ....for Satan, who promotes false doctrines, throughout the Christian world.

I will not stand by idly, while Satan promotes his ideas.

Many Christians are afraid to talk about the rapture of the Church.  Deep down they feel an excitement about the prospect of being snatched away in the twinkling of an eye to be with the Lord and Savior they love, worship, and have given their lives to.  However, they fear being labeled or criticized for a hope that many through the ages have had; a hope that God fully intended for us to have.  God warned us against ignoring the hope that end-times prophecy gives us in I Thessalonians 5:16 when he said "Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt.  Test everything.  Hold on to the good.  Avoid every kind of evil."

There is a reason Christ warned his end-times followers 13 times in the New Testament to not be deceived, and to watch and be ready.  He wanted us to be excited about His glorious appearing.

Satan, on the other hand, does not want us to be excited.  He is the master deceiver and wants us to believe his deception rather than the signs of Christ's return given to us by Jesus himself.  He will send many to deceive us and to rob us of the joy of living every day in anticipation of Christ's return.

For those who believe that the Bible is the truth and is the very word of God, it's easy to believe in and rejoice in the prophecies that tell of the rapture of God's Church.  The Bible tells us of others who have been taken up into heaven in very much the same way that we will be at the time of the rapture.

One of the best supporting verses from the Bible for the rapture of the Church is found in Revelation 3:10.
"Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth."

This verse is a promise made by Christ to one of His seven churches, the church of Philadelphia.  The hour of trial Jesus speaks of in this verse is the period of time that our Lord calls the "great tribulation, Matthew 24:21 such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be".

There are many verses in the Bible that describe the rapture.  Christians in the first century church were so driven by the coming of their Lord and savior in the end-times that they shared their faith everywhere.  Paul wrote to the Thessalonian church in I Thessalonians 1:6-10
And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe.  For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place.  Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything.  For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and  true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

This belief in being taken up to meet Christ is the essence of hope.  A hope that Satan will fight and challenge with all of his might.

We also read the following in I Thessalonians 4:16-18
"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up int he air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.  Therefore encourage each other with these words."

The Lord will shout a loud command as he descends from heaven, and we will hear the voice of the archangel, perhaps to lead Israel during the seven years of tribulation as he did in the Old Testament.  It should be an encouragement to all of us in these times of lust, greed, corruption, self-centeredness and resistance to all things that are of God.

I Corinthians 15:51-53 "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall all be changed.  For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."  
The Greek word here is harpadso, meaning "snatched up" to be with Christ.  When Christ comes to set up his earthly kingdom at the end of the tribulation, he will come with power and the holy angels to bind Satan, and to deal with the earthly Kings who are gathered at Jerusalem to oppose Him.  When He comes for his Church at the time of the rapture, He will leave his Father's house and come in the clouds to call the dead in Christ and then the living church to "come up hither," where they will join with each other in the clouds to live with Him in His Father's house.  Belief in this kind of resurrection was common among the Jews of that day.  Martha believed Jesus when he challenged her to understand the coming resurrection of the dead.  She responded to Jesus, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection in the last days."

When the rapture does occur, billions of people will be left behind full of surprise and shock at the disappearances of their loved ones, friends, and acquaintances. I believe that you, silversurfer will be one of these people.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Who knows what explanation the Antichrist will use to explain away the disappearances of millions of believers.  But, one thing is for certain, with the main obstacle to his plan for the world removed, the way will be clear for the Antichrist to implement his evil plan for the world as is prophesied in the Bible.  With the followers of Christ gone, few would stand in the way of a world religion that deifies man, and a world government that criminalizes belief in God.

II Thessalonians 2:3, 6-7  "Let no one in any way deceive you for it (the Day of the Lord) will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.  And you know what restrains him now, so that in this time he may be revealed.  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way."

 
In our world today, many are turning to a new age faith that vilifies belief in salvation through Christ, and changes the Word of God to fit an inclusive, creedless, self-gratifying religion that requires nothing and promises everything, including godhood.  A belief that releases us from any responsibility, accountability or consequences in life, is becoming more popular in our humanist society and will gain in popularity as the end times progress.

The forces of the Antichrist are restrained on Earth until the Holy Spirit which dwells within God's Church is removed by the rapture.  With Christ's followers removed from the scene, the Antichrist will be released to usher in the world's new age religion with all of its evils.

However, as this depressing time descends upon us, we can rejoice.  God promised us that he would deliver his Church from the persecutions of the Antichrist and the wrath of God that will follow his rise to power.  The rapture is the fulfillment of that promise.

I Thessalonians 5:4,9-10 "For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.  For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

Christ will return for those who have died and those who are still living and deliver us from the wrath and tribulation that will be suffered by those who follow the Antichrist.

Romans 5:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

I Thessalonians 1:10 "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come."

God will come for his Church suddenly at a time when we least expect it.  For this reason, He instructs us to be ready, always prepared, and on guard for his coming.  As those around us turn their backs on God, worshipping themselves, other gods, or false prophets instead, we should be looking up.  We should have our spiritual lives in order, so that we might escape what is to come.  Especially as we are now witnessing the beginnings of birth pains, God reminds us that we need to be in prayer constantly so that we will not be led down the other path and miss His coming.

Luke 21:34-36  "Be on guard, that your heart may not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon the face of the earth.  But keep on the alert at all times, praying in order that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

God felt it was so important for us to be alert and watchful for his coming that he reminded us several times to be ready.

Matthew 24:42  "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming."

Matthew 24:44  "For the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Matthew 24:36  "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

Matthew 25:13  "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour."

It is to our benefit that God didn't tell us the hour of His coming.  It encourages us to live righteously as Christ may return any time, and it encourages believers to work diligently for the souls of friends, family and the lost of this world.  It reminds us that we have much work to do and may not have much time to do it.  If there was ever a time to be an example, share your faith, and make sure that everyone you know has heard the name Jesus, it is now.

After the rapture of the Church, the tribulation will fall upon the Earth.  For those of us who received Christ and were prepared for His coming, we can shout for Joy.  The Lord has prepared a place for us and we will be with him always.

Isaiah 26:19-21  "Your dead will live; their corpses will rise.  You who lie in the dust awake and shout for joy.  For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.  Come, my people, enter into your rooms, And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while, Until indignation runs its course.  For behold, the Lord is about to come out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; and the earth will reveal her bloodshed, and will no longer cover her slain."

Many Christians will read about the rapture of the Church which will occur before the tribulation and respond with "It's too good to be true!" or "I don’t deserve to be saved from the wrath to come."  We often overlook, however, that trials and tribulations are a standard part of everyday life in a fallen world.  But our Lord specifically informed us that the tribulation is a special judgment of God.  It is for our sake that these days will be shortened for us.  This escape from wrath is not based on merit, but on what the Bible says.  God deals with us on a basis of grace when we accept him as our savior, and this basis extends itself to the tribulation.  We should celebrate the saving grace of Christ.  Let the joy that fills your soul at the mention of His return show in your life.  Let it be an example that draws others in.  Then tell everyone you know the reason for the hope that is within you so that they too may look to the future with excitement, hope and confidence, and you will see them in your Fathers house at that great time of reunion and rejoicing.

What your post are doing is serving Satan, silversurfer. That or you may be a confused person. Never the less you need to study the Bible better, then you have been.

Go in peace with God.
DW

DreamWeaver,


There is nothing secret about the RAPTURE. It was made public by Daniel in the Old Testament and confirmed in many other precious portions of Scripture. In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul reveals much more, including much that was not known by men of other ages. Specifically, Paul revealed a mystery about a church not made with human hands, the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. Paul certainly didn't hint of any fear about the RAPTURE, just the opposite. The RAPTURE is a time of great JOY, not fear.

HOWEVER, the children of darkness WILL most definitely have reason to fear. The destruction will be beyond imagination.

Great posts Brother!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Dreamweaver,
                  WOW ......you've read the bible haven't you?  :P
I couldn't have said it better myself......excellent repost.
musicllover

Amen Dream weaver.

Jesus said: "I pray, not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil", (John 17:15).
Jesus told his followers, "In the world you shall have tribulation", (John 16:33).


Many people use these verses to argue that the Church must go through tribulation.  If you read farther down in Jesus prayer he says....

Joh 17:24  Father, I desire that those whom You have given Me, that they may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me, for You have loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Note:  Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, so that where I am, you may be also.

They had work to do before they would go to the fathers house, just like Jesus did.  So this verse does not refute a rapture.

Act 14:22  confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God.

Much tribulation.  Daily life struggles, persecutions etc.  Not tribulation such as the world has never seen nor ever will.   IF that were the case, how is it that those who have already died will not see that time of tribulation but also enter the kingdom of heaven?  Doesn't hold water.



Mat 27:52  and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep arose,
Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tomb after His resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Another...

Rev 11:11  And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.
Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.


So since we have first(s) ressurections going on Rev 20:4-5 completes the first fruits, not begins it.


Speaking of the attitude of mans heart (eating, drinking, marrying etc.)

There are a host of other scriptures that point to a pre-trib rapture.   It may or may not happen that way, but pre-trib deffinately answers the most difficult questions concerning the rapture.

Grace and Peace!

You will also notice there is no mention of the living.  The rapture is promise to the living.....not just the dead.   The purpose of Revelation is the revealing of Christ to the world.  Don't be surprised if many will not come to repentance when they realise what is happening.

Grace and Peace!

As a matter of fact, Rev 20 seemingly makes post rapture impossible

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There are two groups mentioned here.  They who sat on thrones, already given judgment duties, and souls.  How do we have living before the dead, when we know the dead rise first?

Grace and Peace!

2nd Timothy,

AMEN BROTHER!

I think that I see where Silver Surfer is going with this, but it won't work. Christians do suffer tribulation, trials, and assaults by the devil in this short life. BUT, there is a huge difference. THE RESTRAINER WILL BE REMOVED FOR THE GREAT TRIBULATION! Any casual student of the Holy Bible will easily recognize THE RESTRAINER AS THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD!

The devil will be loosed in the GREAT TRIBULATION, and the anti-Christ will reign in a portion of the GREAT TRIBULATION. There will still be witnesses during the 7 year Tribulation Period, and people will be Saved. A host of the Saved will be beheaded for their beliefs, hunted, and have their Faith tried and tested - quite a contrast from the Gospel of God's Grace. They will have to reject the mark of the beast and proclaim their faith in Jesus Christ unto death to be Saved. Further, that proclamation unto death will spare them from the eternal wrath to come.

At this point in time, Christians certainly have trials, but we don't have GREAT TRIBULATION because of the RESTRAINER - THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

BEP, I have looked this over several times, and the evidence always leads me to a pre-trib scenario.   Not that I couldn't be wrong, but pre-trib fits like a glove when we let scripture speak for itself.  The other views require too much monkeying with scripture to make it all work together.

Whatever the case, I don't think the wait will be too much longer no matter what view one holds.  I think we are so close things will have to go into standby for the end to wait.   As Jesus said it would be like birth pangs....well, seems to me the water has broken as of late.   :D

Grace and Peace!

Clearly speaking of the second advent.  Because the souls/dead/martyrs that did not worship of follow the beast are saved at that the very end.


You will note that verse 10 tells John not to seal up the book.  So from that point forward (the time John wrote revelation) no one will be saved?  Sorry but your argument is a red herring...as this happened at the time of the vision, not after the return of Christ.

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Verse 14 tells us where these come from....Out of the tribulation!  Most likely, the old fashioned way...by death/martyrdom.   After the rapture as also we know the restrainer has been removed at this point.


Grace and Peace!

2nd Timothy,

Brother, I agree with you completely.

This minute would be nice - I would simply PRAISE GOD!

I'm ready and waiting to meet the Lord and Saviour in the air.

Love In Christ,
Tom

WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA!!

What in the world...Did i just read that you said there will be no seven years of Tribulation silver...nuh unh...there most certainly will be bub. You can thank Daniel's prophecy for that. i wish i had more time to explain but my time is limited on here...to say that there won't be a bit of the seven years of Tribulation...completely ignores the 70 weeks of daniel, completely disregards Christ's teachings on the Abomination of Desolation that accures during the 7 years of Trib. completely disregards the Original Prophecy of the Abomination of Dedolation committed by the Anti-Christ, and blows Revelations right out of the water by stateing that it's false...bub you just said all those things and disregarded all them things in that one statement...i'm flabbergasted that you'd even say such a thing silver...whew...i'm calm now...anyway...next post i post under this thread will be a study on the seventy weeks of daniel (condensed version so i don't have to put it into 5 seperate posts) man...i gotta get to writing for this one...i'm just gonna shake my head at this one. good day and God Bless.

In His Service,
Joshua

Josh  please note that  the word 'antichrist' is used only 4 times in scritpture and the word 'antichrists' once.  The word is used only in the 'little books of John' how much do we add to scripture?

Reba, I know we have different views about this and I'm OK with that.  I still Love you and jest you as my own sister  :P  8)   :D

The word for antichrist means opponent to messiah.  We know there are many who are and will be.  However, Daniel, 2nd Thess. and Revelation speak of one in particular that will be an opponent to messiah bearing great miracles of deception.   He will become Satans conduit of wrath upon Gods most precious creation....man.   Just because its only mentioned singularly once, does not make it any less true.  Not one jot from his word will pass away.  

2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Doesn't say Antichrist, but He is certainly an opponent of Messiah (in every sense of the word Antichrist), and He will be the conduit of Satan wrath by means of power, signs and lying wonders to lead the world astray.

Grace and Peace!

If another poster was the make small changes in your post and then post it as if it was your words i bet you wouldn't like it. I just believe we should use the The scripture as God wrote it. I do hope Josh at his young age willl see the benifits of using the God given verbage.  sooooooooo  :P :P

Your forgetting one very important point.....there is 'ONLY' one resurrection for the righteous....as Revelation 20:4,5 points out, and it happens to be the 1st resurrection (Verse 5).
 

Hmmmm....interesting. I guess all those old folks that came out of their graves during the earthquake following Jesus' crucifixion were just.......???

And then there is the little "problem" of trying to equate resurrection only with the body.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead

Which is somewhat different from the changing of the physical body, as in:
1Cr 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

We are already dead (to sin) and have been reborn (resurrected) with a NEW spirit, a NEW destination, and ETERNAL life....the only thing we're waiting on is the change of the physical body to immortality....and that isn't "resurrection."

Sheeesh  E

 What ever can  common sense have to do with so much spiritual scripture! :)

Yup.  Rev 20:4 completes the first fruits of it.    ;)


 ::)  

Silver Surfer.  When you stand before God, and he asks you "why should I let you into my kingdom?" what will your answer be?

Grace and Peace!

I think you need to study more SS. Remember that the New Testement is for after Israel becamee a nation again.

Where do we get the term "Rapture"? The term "rapture" is not found in the Bible, so where does the word come from? The term "rapture" comes from the Latin translation of the Greek word translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Charles Ryrie explains, "The Greek word from which we take the term 'rapture' appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated 'caught up.' The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea Acts 8:39 and to describe Paul's experience of being caught up into the third heaven 2 Cor. 12:2-4. Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven." (Charles Ryrie, Basic Theology, p. 462)

Passages referring to the Rapture There are three primary texts which refer to the Rapture: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 and John 14:1-3.

Components of the Rapture

The return of Christ "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. . ." 1 Thess. 4:16. "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself" John 14:3

A resurrection of dead church saints "The dead in Christ shall rise first" 1 Thess. 4:16. "The dead will be raised imperishable" 1 Cor. 15:52.

A translation of living believers "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up" 1 Thess. 4:17.

A glorious reunion "We. . . shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord" 1 Thess. 4:17. "I will come. . . that where I am, there you may be also" John 14:3.

A giving of glorified bodies "We shall be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality" 1 Cor. 15:52-53. "We eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory" Philippians 3:20-21.

Speed of Rapture "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" 1 Cor. 15:52.

The timing of the Rapture in relation to the Tribulation period

The debate "In the nineteenth century, teaching concerning the Rapture of the church began to be widely disseminated. This raised such questions as whether the second coming of Christ involves several stages, the relation of those stages to the Tribulation period, and the distinctiveness of the church from Israel in God's program. In the twentieth century one of the most debated questions in eschatology concerns the time of the Rapture." (Ryrie, p. 478)

The various views Amillennialists and Postmillennialists regard the coming of Christ as a single event to be followed by a general resurrection and judgment. Within Premillennialism, though, five main views have been promoted concerning the timing of the Rapture:

Pretribulationism Pretribulationsim teaches that the Rapture of the church will occur before the seven-year Tribulation period begins. Supporters of this view include John Walvoord, Charles Ryrie, Dwight Pentecost, Alva J. McClain, John Feinberg, and Paul Feinberg.

Midtribulationism Midtribulationsim teaches that the Rapture of the church will occur at the midpoint of the seven years of Tribulation; that is, after three and one half years have elapsed. Supporters of this view include Oliver Buswell and Gleason Archer.

Pre-wrath Rapture The Pre-wrath rapture view teaches that all Christians will be taken in the Rapture approximately three-fourths of the way through the Tribulation period. Supporters of this view include Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Van Kampen.

Posttribulationism Posttribulationism teaches that the Rapture and Second Coming are facets of a single event which will occur at the end of the Tribulation period. Thus, the church will be on earth during the seven years Tribulation period. Supporters of this view include George Ladd, Robert Gundry and Douglas Moo.

Partial Rapture The Partial rapture view teaches that only the "spiritual" Christians who are watching and waiting for the Lord's return will be taken in the Rapture. Then during the seven years of Tribulation other Church Age saints who were not prepared for the initial Rapture will be raptured at various intervals. This view originated with Robert Govett in 1835 and was also taught by J. A. Seiss and G.H. Lang.

Why is this issue of the timing of the Rapture important?

Whole counsel of God The study of the Rapture is important because we want to know the whole counsel of God.

The Christian's expectation The Rapture issue is important because it deals with the nature of the Christian's hope and expectation. Are Christians to expect Christ's return at any moment? Or, are we expecting to go through a time of worldwide tribulation?

A Biblical defense of Pretribulationism Of these five views why is Pretribulationism to be preferred? The following are biblical evidences for a Pretribulational Rapture:

The pillars of Pretribulationism The foundation of Pretribulationism has four elements:

Consistent literal interpretation The literal method of interpretation attempts to explain the original sense of the writer according to the normal usages of words and language. The literal method interprets all of the Bible in a normal and plain way, all the time understanding that the Bible, at times, uses symbols, figures of speech and types.

Distinction between Israel and the Church The more one recognizes the biblical distinction between Israel and the church, the clearer one will be able to see God's distinct plan for each group. According to Thomas Ice, "If Israel and the church are not distinguished, then there is no basis for seeing a future for Israel or for the church as a new and unique people of God. If Israel and the church are merged into a single program, then the Old Testament promises for Israel will never be fulfilled and are usually seen by replacement theologians as spiritually fulfilled by the church. The merging of Israel's destiny into the church not only makes into one what the Scriptures understand as two, but it also removes a need for future restoration of God's original elect people in order to fulfill literally His promise that they will one day be the head and not the tail Deuteronomy 28:13.
The more that believers see a distinct plan for Israel and a distinct plan for the church, the more they realize that when the New Testament speaks to the church it is describing a separate destiny and hope for her. The church becomes more distinct in the plan of God. Israel's future includes the seven-year tribulation, and then shortly before Christ's return to Jerusalem she will be converted to Jesus as her Messiah. . . . On the other hand, the distinct hope for the church is Christ's any-moment return.
Thus, a distinction between Israel and the church, as taught in the Bible, provides a basis of support for the pretribulational rapture. Those who merge the two programs cannot logically support the biblical arguments for pretribulationism." (Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, The Truth About The Rapture, pp. 25-26)

Futurism Pretribulationism takes a futuristic interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 and the book of Revelation. Daniel 9:24-27 gives the seven-year chronological framework of the Tribulation while Revelation 6-18 details the judgments that make up this period. Futurism sees prophecy as being fulfilled in the future, namely with the Tribulation period, the Second Coming of Christ to earth, and the Millennial Kingdom. Futurism is opposed to preterism, which sees prophecy as already being fulfilled in the past, predominately in A.D. 70. Futurism is also opposed to historicism which sees prophecy being fulfilled in the current Church Age.

Premillennialism At the end of the seven year Tribulation period, Jesus Christ will return to earth in power and glory to set up an earthly Kingdom from Jerusalem that will last for a literal one thousand years Rev. 20:1-6.

Proper methodology for addressing the rapture issue What is the proper method for addressing this issue of the timing of the Rapture?

Examine the Rapture and Second Coming passages Go first to the portions of Scripture that speak directly about the Rapture and the return of the Lord to earth. Study John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 for the Rapture. Examine Zechariah 14:1-21; Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-27; and Revelation 19 for the Second Coming to earth.

Examine implications of conclusions Proper methodology does not stop with an examination of the primary texts addressing an issue. As John Feinberg says, "While one should begin with passages that speak directly about the doctrine under consideration, one must also pay attention to the implications of the doctrine. This is especially important if, as in the case of the rapture, the passages about the rapture and return of the Lord do not determine the question of the rapture's timing in relation to the time of the Tribulation. . . . Implications and relations of doctrines to one another are crucial. If one's position on a given theological issue is correct, it will fit with other known theological and biblical truths rather than contradict them. (John S. Feinberg, "Arguing for the Rapture: Who Must Prove What and How" in, When the Trumpet Sounds, Thomas Ice and Timothy eds. p. 191)

Putting it all together "The key point to remember is that proper theological methodology dare not allow us to ignore either the rapture and parousia passages or the doctrines that have implications for one's views on the rapture and second advent. Although study should begin with passages that speak directly to the topic at hand, both are equally important. It is surely no victory to uphold one's views on the timing of the rapture at the expense of denying what God's Word says, for example, about the relation of the church to God's judgmental wrath." (John Feinberg, p. 192)

Biblical evidence for Pretribulationism The Bible does not explicitly tells us the timing of the Rapture. Thus, no one verse tells us that the Rapture will be pretribulational (or midtribulational or posttribulational for that matter). Does this mean that the doctrine of pretribulationism is unbiblical? Not necessarily. Many important biblical doctrines are not given to us directly in one verse. Some doctrines are based on a harmonization of multiple passages. Yet a harmonization of passages shows these doctrines to be biblical. Likewise a harmonization of biblical texts shows the pretribulational rapture view to be biblical. The following are the biblical evidences:

God has promised the Church deliverance from divine wrath 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10 God made a special promise to the church that it will be delivered from the future, tribulational wrath of God. It is best to take this deliverance as a physical removal (Rapture)from this time of divine wrath.

1 Thess. 1:9-10 The Thessalonians were wait[ing] for His Son from heaven. . . that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come. Why does this wrath refer to the Tribulation? First, the context of 1 and 2 Thessalonians deals with the Day of the Lord and the judgment of God that precedes the coming of Christ. Second, the text states that it is a future wrath ("wrath to come"). Third, it is a wrath one can be rescued from by the return of Christ. Thus, The wrath referred to then is the wrath of the Tribulation period and not God's eternal wrath in general.

1 Thess. 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Why does this wrath refer to the Tribulation? The immediate context is the wrath of the Day of the Lord 1 Thess. 5:1-8. Plus, this must be the same wrath as 1 Thess. 1:10.

The whole seven year Tribulation period is a time of God's divine wrath so the protection promised must be for the whole seven years. Some have tried to say that divine wrath does not characterize the whole seven year Tribulation period. They say that the early judgments (the seals) of the tribulation are the wrath of man and Satan. The following points, however, show that the whole Tribulation period is a time of divine wrath.

Jesus is the One who directly opens all the Tribulation judgments including the seal judgments which begin the Tribulation period. In Revelation 4 and 5 Jesus is the One found worthy to open the seals which He begins to open in Rev  6:1. The opening of the seals by Christ indicates that the seal judgments are divine wrath.

The seal judgments which open the Tribulation are consistent with divine wrath "The judgments of these four seals include the sword, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts, frequently used in Scripture as the expressions of divine wrath. Indeed, they are all included and named when God calls His 'four severe judgments upon Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts and plague' Ezek. 14:21." (Gerald B. Stanton, "A Review of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, Bibliotecha Sacra, vol. 148 #589, January 1991) Plus, plagues such as pestilence and wild beasts can hardly be caused by man.

As early as the sixth seal, unbelievers declare that God's wrath "has come" Rev. 6:16-17. Unbelievers recognize that all six seals that have happened so far are the direct wrath of God. Robert L. Thomas says "The verb elthen ('has come') is aorist indicative, referring to a previous arrival of the wrath, not something that is about to take place. Men see the arrival of this day at least as early as the cosmic upheavals that characterize the sixth seal Rev 6:12-14, but upon reflection they probably recognize it was already in effect with the death of one-fourth of the population Rev 6:7-8, the worldwide famine Rev 6:5-6, and the global warfare Rev 6:3-4. The rapid sequence of all these events could not escape public notice, but the light of their true explanation does not dawn upon human consciousness until the severe phenomena of the sixth seal arrive." (Robert L. Thomas, Revelation 1-7, pp. 457-58)

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth. Here is a promise to the Church of preservation outside of the time of Tribulation. Thus, believers are not only promised deliverance from divine wrath but from the time period ("hour") of divine wrath. This rules out the possibility of the Church being on earth during the Tribulation. As Ryrie says, "It is impossible to conceive of being in the location where something is happening and being exempt from the time of the happening."

Differences between Rapture passages and Second Coming passages indicate that the two are different events happening at different times. The central passages dealing with the Rapture are John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The central passages dealing with the Second Coming to earth are Zechariah 14:1- 21; Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-27 and Revelation 19. A careful examination of these texts will show that there is enough reason to conclude that the Rapture and the Second Coming to earth are not the same event:

The Second Coming is preceded by signs but the Rapture is presented as imminent with no signs preceding it. "In passages that deal with the Second Advent there are signs or events that lead up to and signal the return of Jesus Christ Matt. 24:4-28; Rev. 19:11-21. In each of these passages of Scripture there is the careful and extensive itemizing of details that should alert believers in that day that the Second Advent is about to occur. . . . On the other hand, there is no mention of any signs or events that precede the Rapture of the church in any of the Rapture passages. The point seems to be that the believer prior to this event is to look, not for some sign, but the Lord from heaven. If the Rapture was a part of the complex of events that make up the Second Advent, and not distinct from it, then we would expect that there would be a mention of signs or events in at least one passage." (See Paul D. Feinberg, "The Case For The Pretribulation Rapture Position," in Gleason Archer, Paul Feinberg, Douglas Moo, The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Post Tribulational? p. 80)

The Rapture is presented as a coming in blessing while the Second Coming is a coming for judgment. "In the clear Rapture passages, the Lord's coming is presented as a coming in blessing for the saints. Nothing is said about His coming for judgment. On the other hand, passages about the second advent speak of the Lord's coming in judgment upon His enemies Rev. 19:11; Joel 3:12-16; Zech. 14:3-5." (John Feinberg, p. 198). "In each of the Rapture passages there is no mention of trial before the event. Rather, there is the bare promise of Christ's return for His own." (Paul Feinberg, p. 81)

Second Coming passages are in the context of the setting up of the Kingdom while the Rapture passages make no mention of the Kingdom. "Second advent passages are invariably followed by talk of setting up the kingdom after the Lord's return Matt. 24:31; 25:31ff; Zech. 14; Joel 3; Rev. 19-20. So, the second advent is preparatory to the establishment of the millennial kingdom.

Glorified bodies at the Rapture "It is very clear from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51 that at the rapture those gathered to the Lord will be glorified. On the other hand, second advent passages say nothing about anyone (living or dead) receiving a glorified body." (John Feinberg, p. 198) "Nowhere in the texts that deal with the Second Advent is there the teaching about the translation of living saints." (Paul Feinberg, p. 82)

In the central Rapture passage dealing with this issue, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, the time of the resurrection of dead saints in clearly stated to be during the descent of Christ of to the earth. Those raptured, living and dead saints, will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Contrast that information with what is found in Revelation 19-20. There, the order seems to be: the descent of Christ, the slaying of His enemies, the casting of the Beast and the False Prophet into the lake of fire, the binding of Satan, and then the resurrection of the saints. It seems as though the resurrection of the dead will be during the descent at the Rapture, but after the descent at the Second Coming.

Differences in destiny at time of comings There seems to be an inconsistency between the destination of those who are raptured in the Rapture and the destination of those who participate in the Second Coming. In the posttribulation understanding of the events that surround the Second Coming, the church will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and will immediately accompany Him on His continued descent to the earth. Compare that with John 14:3. In the Rapture the Lord is going to come and take those raptured to be with Him. The clear implication is that the raptured saints will be taken to heaven, not earth. If this is so, then the destination of those caught up in the Rapture will be heaven. According to the Second Coming passages, however, the saints involved are headed for the earth. So who are they coming with, Jesus Christ of course.

The role of the angels in the comings At the Second Coming, the angels are the ones who will gather the elect Matt. 24:31. At the Rapture Jesus is the direct agent of the gathering 1 Thess. 4:16.

The "mystery" nature of the Rapture "Paul speaks of the Rapture as a 'mystery' 1 Cor. 15:51-54, that is, a truth not revealed until it was disclosed by the apostles Col. 1:26. Thus the Rapture is said to be a newly revealed mystery, making it a separate event. The Second Coming on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4.

No mention of the Church in Revelation 4-18 Revelation 4-18 gives the most detailed account of the seven year Tribulation period. If the Church were to be in the Tribulation period, surely one would expect at least one reference to the Church in this time period. The Church, however, which is referred to nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation, is suddenly silent and never referred to in chapters Rev.4-18. "It is remarkable and totally unexpected that John would shift from detailed instructions for the Church to absolute silence about the Church for the subsequent 15 chapters if, in fact, the Church continued into the tribulation." (Richard L. Mayhue, Snatched Before the Storm, p. 8)

Pretribulationism best explains the presence of nonglorified saints who will enter the Millennial Kingdom. The Bible indicates that living unbelievers will be removed from the earth and judged at the end of the Tribulation. Yet the Bible also teaches that children will be born during the Millennium and that people will be capable of sin Isa. 65:20 and Rev. 20:7-10. How can this be? The pretribulational view allows for people to be saved after the Rapture and during the Tribulation who will then enter the Millennial Kingdom in nonglorified bodies. As John Feinberg says, "According to pretribulationism, after the rapture the Tribulation begins. The gospel is preached throughout the Tribulation and there are some who believe. Though many who believe are killed Revelation 13:7, 15, not all believers are killed during the Tribulation. Those who live through the Tribulation go into the kingdom in natural bodies. In addition, some people accept the Lord when he returns at the end of the Tribulation Zech. 12:10. Many of these people do not die at that point, and there is no evidence that they are given a glorified body when they receive Christ. These people are also available to go into the kingdom in natural bodies. For a pretrib position, there are seven years to get people saved prior to the kingdom, and some of those can go into the kingdom in natural bodies. . . . The position that is really in trouble with respect to this issue is the posttribulation rapture view. If everyone who goes at the rapture is glorified, and if the rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation, who is left to enter the kingdom in natural bodies? All believers will have been raptured and glorified by that time."

Nature of Tribulation centers on Israel According to Daniel 9:24-27 the "seventy weeks" prophecy including the final "one week" (seven years) is for Israel ("your people"). Jeremiah 30:7 refers to the Tribulation period as a time of "Jacob's distress."

Purpose #1: Preparation of Israel "The Bible teaches that the Tribulation is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and conversion Deuteronomy 4:29, 30; Jeremiah 30:3-11; Zechariah 12:10."

Purpose #2: Judgment for an unbelieving world Revelation 3:10 refers to the Tribulation period as "the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth." The second major purpose of the Tribulation, then, is to test the unbelieving world. "Those who dwell upon the earth" refers to those who are unbelievers on earth during the period described in Revelation 4-19. (Thomas Edgar, "An Exegesis of Rapture Passages," in Issues in Dispensationalism, p. 216)

The nature of the Church If the nature of the Tribulation is Jewish and the purpose of the Tribulation is to bring Israel to belief and to judge the unbelieving world, what purpose does the church have in relation to this period? As shown already, the church is promised deliverance from this time of wrath 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10.

The expectation of the Church is the imminent coming of Christ not the Tribulation period. "Passages such as 1 Corinthians 1:7; Titus 2:13 and Philippians 3:20 are applicable at this point. The believer is pictured as eagerly waiting and earnestly expecting the Savior.

The Thessalonian's expectation That Paul had taught a Pretribulational Rapture can be inferred from 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3. In this passage, Paul notes that the Thessalonians had been "shaken" and "disturbed" because they had been led to think that they were presently in the Day of the Lord (i.e. the Tribulation period). The fact that they were disturbed is significant. If Paul had taught a posttribulational rapture, the Thessalonians would have had no reason to be disturbed since they would be expecting signs and persecution before the coming of the Lord. Thus, they could joyously look to the soon coming of the Lord after the Tribulation. However, the fact that the Thessalonians were shook up indicates that they did not expect to be in the Day of the Lord. A fair inference is that, in line with Paul's previous teaching, the Thessalonians expected to be raptured prior to the Day of the Lord.

Concluding thoughts, shows that a  biblical case for the pretribulational rapture position. The judgmental and Jewish nature of the Tribulation seems to exclude the Church who is promised deliverance from this time of wrath. The differences between Rapture and Second Coming passages, though not convincing to all, seem weighty enough to make it very possible that the two are different events happening at different times. If this be the case, this view harmonizes well with the fact that the Church is nowhere to be found in the very detailed Tribulation section of Revelation 4-19. This view also harmonizes well with the fact that there must be a time period allowed for people to be saved and then enter the Millennial Kingdom in nonglorified bodies.

Revelation  22:14   "Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city".  

And this is what Jesus Christ mentioned, when some asks him how they might gain eternal life, (Matthew 19:16,17.....Mark 10:17-19).

Lets take a look at exactly what Jesus did say...

Mat 19:16  And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18  He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19  Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20  The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21  Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22  But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23  Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24  And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25  When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26  But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Not possible for men to do it!  But only God.


Mat 19:27  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The word for regeneration is pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah meaning rebirth

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So again I ask.  Will you tell God that because you have kept his commandments He should allow you into heaven, even  after Jesus himself says here that man could not do it?  If this is your answer, I fear and pray for you SilverSurfer.  Open your eyes to the truth of the Gospel.  

Grace and Peace!

Again, you have failed to read the entire passage....pay close attention now......

1Jo 3:21  Beloved, if our heart does not accuse us, we have confidence with God.
1Jo 3:22  And whatever we ask, we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments, and we do the things pleasing before Him.
1Jo 3:23  And this is His commandment, that we should believe the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as He gave command to us.
1Jo 3:24  And the one keeping His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He gave to us.

We are saved by Grace SS, not by works of the law.  Sure we keep his commands, Loving one another and believing in the Jesus Christ.   All 10 commands from the OT were fulfilled on the cross.  The sabbath became Christ himself.  We ENTER rest when we enter Christ.   You will not enter heaven because of law keeping.   You will only enter heaven by being in him which happens only by grace through faith.

His commands are all about Love.

14:15-18 "If you love me, you will obey what I command

14:21 "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me

John 15:12-13 "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."

John 15:17 "This is my command: Love each other

No where does he state the sabbath as evidence of a person being in Christ.  It is our Love for one another, the same way Christ Loved us.   Not who is keeping sabbaths.  I have no issue with you wanting to worship on saturday.  But I assure you God has no problem with anyone wanting to worship on Sunday or any other day of the week for that matter.  HE is our Sabbath.  HE is our rest, HE is our saviour.  Not the days of the week.   If you're answer to God when He asks why you should be allowed into heaven is anything other than....

Because Jesus Christ, my Lord and saviour, shed his blood for my sins.    You might want to examine your beliefs friend.  I encourage you to come into his rest today and know him as your personal saviour if you do not.   Don't bank on your abilities to keep laws, bank on the Lord of the sabbath, who did keep all the laws and shed his blood for you.   He is the way, the truth and the life.   Believe on Him!

Grace and Peace!

AMEN BROTHER!!! The Holy Bible tells us so in many precious portions of Scripture.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Gee, Sheela.....I had thought you had presented yourself as knowledgeable, incisive, and current in your research.

Guess I was wrong.

Item: Darby didn't know MacDonald. Darby's first writings were in 1827, whereas MacDonald's "vision" didn't occur 'til '35.  MacDonald's vision was not "pre-trib" in nature, and Darby's understanding related principally to the distinction between the Church (body of Christ) and Israel, both as a national entity and God's chosen people.  The early Church well understood this "mystery" as Paul put it, but it was not until the mid 300's that Augustine began promoting "replacement" theology, which then held sway until the mid-1800's.

Item:
In about 325 AD, a series of sermons resulting in published books were made by Ephraem, bishop of Syria, where he expounded on his understanding of the Daniel, the Olivet Discourse and the Revelation of Jesus Christ.  His sermon was called:
On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World

Following are snips.

Section 1, Para 2:
In those days two brothers will come to the Roman empire who will rule with one mind; but because one will surpass the other, there will be a schism between them. And so the Adversary will be loosed and will stir up hatred between the Persian and Roman empires. In those days many will rise up against Rome; the Jewish people will be her adversaries. There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earth quakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. From the rising to the setting of the sun the sword will devour much. The times will be so dangerous that in fear and trembling they will not permit thought of better things, because many will be the oppressions and desolations of regions that are to come.

Section 2, Para 1:
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging.  (snip)...
For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (snip)...

As if this were not early enough, consider Ignatius, a cohort of Onesimus and Paul, who penned these words to the Ephesians in a letter of exhortation (around 80-90AD):
...These are the last times. Henceforth let us have reverence; let us fear the long-suffering of God, lest it turn into a judgment against us and we be left to suffer tribulation when the Lord shall come for His own. Either let us fear the wrath which is to come or let us love the grace which now is -- the one or the other; provided only that we be found in Christ Jesus unto true life. (snip)
...If Jesus Christ should count me worthy through your prayer, and it should be the Divine will, in my second tract, which I intend to write to you, I will
further set before you the dispensation whereof I have begun to speak,... (snip)


Finally:
The theology of tribulation is well established in Jewish eschatology, and can easily be traced back to many of the Jewish sages and Sanhedrin, writing both before and after Christ.

One of the bones of contention that existed between the Pharisees and Sadducees involved not just a resurrection, but deliverance from tribulation, a thing which the Sadducees maintained would not occur.

sheelanagigs,

The Apostle Paul preached what you say is a modern invention. Tribulation and Rapture were preached about over 2,000 years ago in detail. One would have to ignore most of the New Testament and numerous portions of the Old Testament to say that someone in the 1800s invented anything at all on this subject. Daniel and other portions of the Old Testament support the writing of the Apostle Paul, much like other writers in the New Testament.

Regarding "dispensation", that isn't new or invented either. It was also taught by the Apostle Paul over 2,000 years ago. The examples would be numerous, but here's one that is a most precious truth for today:

Ephesians 3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Casual Bible students will easily know that Paul is talking about the Dispensation of Grace, THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD, the GOOD NEWS! The Apostle Paul had a focus for his ministry 2,000 years ago, and everything he taught then is the most precious TRUTH for today. His focus was THE CROSS, THE GIFT of GOD, THE GRACE of GOD, THE LOVE of GOD, THE PURPOSE OF THE CROSS, AND A LIVING SAVIOUR.

2 Timothy 2:1  Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 2:2  And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 explains why many precious TRUTHS of the Holy Bible are unknown to many.

Tom

Sorry this ended up being such a long post, but it's something I felt compelled to share.
I didn't take the time to read the entire thread, but I would just like to share about myself.  I grew up a Southern Baptist, and still go to a southern baptist church.  So I grew up a premillenial, pre-trib, dispensationalist.  I really didn't even know much about other views, such as amillenialism and postmillenialism.  All I knew was what I read about them in premillenial books.  I attended a two year baptist bible college.  Quite frankly, amillenialism and postmillenialism weren't given a fair and balanced (I sound like FoxNews) defense.  So naturally, my view on them was distorted, and I hadn't really studied them.  

As I had a tendency to do (and I'm not saying every dispensational does this), I tried to keep up with current events and see how they might fit prophecy.  It began to become tiring to me.  I also began to feel as if I was trying to interpret prophecy from current events rather than letting the Bible interpret itself.  So...one day I decided that I'd try to read the main passages that dispensationals say support the pre-trib, premillenial rapture from a totally unbiased (as I could be) view.  In other words, I tried to read them as if I'd never heard of a rapture.  Well, I couldn't find the rapture in there if I took that presuppisition away.  So, I began to study other views and read "A Case For Amillenialism" by Kim Riddlebarger.  He explains it well, and in my estimation stays true to the biblical text.  You most certainly have to have a different set of presuppisitions in the amil view, for example covenantalism vs. dispensationalism.  Anyway, I feel now that the disp. view is kind of pop eschatology.  It's what is popular right now.  Given the popularity of Lahaye, Lindsey, etc etc.  Only time will tell what will happen to this view.  I also think that the rapture fits in well with the escapism mentality of Americans.  The mentality that nothing bad will happen to us.  

All that being said, I'm sure we'll still disagree on this issue.  I suppose Christians throughout history have and will continue to do so.  I don't think those in the disp. camp are evil, stupid, etc etc.  If they are in Christ, then we are brothers and sisters.  The same holds true for any view on prophecy.  I just wanted to relate my story to you and pray that you prayerfully consider each view.  Don't settle on one because right now it makes the most sense, or your pastor believes it.  Believe that view because you've studied each one, and prayed about each one, and that is why you are where you are.  Truth be told, some of us are wrong on this issue.  Since these views hold differing interpretations of prophecy, they can't all be right.  Most likely, none of us are completely right.  I told the youth minister at our church that it would be easy to believe one view and dismiss the others if I knew that in one view, the people lived godly and holy lives and in the other view people didn't.  But I know that in each view, there are people who have prayed about it, live godly lives and are great Christians.  It makes it hard doesn't it?  Thank God He uses us in spite of ourselves.  Grace and peace to you.

(http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)

Here's a little noise for ya.

(http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/violin.gif)

 ;D

Grace and Peace!

What did you mean by "Here's a little noise for ya" ?  

Sorry that I never really introduced myself in the previous post.  I'm 21, in NC and am a junior in college.  Aside from studying theology, I am in the fish-keeping hobby and love to read in general.  Some of my fav. bands is Caedmon's Call and Derek Webb, the Temptations (I know, I'm young for them, but my parents made me listen growing up, and now I like them) among others.  My favorite book of the Bible if I had to narrow it down would be Romans.  Anyway, that's a little about me.

Silver Surfer, just for you:
THE RAPTURE! Everything You Wanted To Know

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=256

<:)))><

fiveeyern, after looking at my post again, I realise it was bit rude and turse, my apologies.  

Obviously I was in the wrong frame of mind when I posted yesterday  :-\   again my humble apologies.


Grace and Peace!

I am new to this site because I am searching for answers.  In the last few days I have had several friends try and get me to believe the the rapture theory is not correct and that the church has been misled. Guys a new movement has arisen and I feel it is part of the falling away.
There is a pastor in Texas by the name of Steve Wohlberg. He is a 7th day adventist. He has written a book and it is making people doubt the rapture. Below is a commentary that was sent to me and it is why I am sharing it with you all. Please read it and help me refute this guy.

www.assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/Leftbehind.htm

Thanks to all, I am glad I have found an Oasis that I can rest with fellow believers.

Archer

 Welcome Archer.

 Listen my friend...There are all kinds of twisted and incorrect interpretations of doctrine and scripture. That's exactly why we must not EVER interpret scripture in a strictly "spiritual" manner. Check out the following...

 Rev 8 Verse 8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

This judgment is undoubtedly a giant meteor falling into the sea. Notice the phrase, as it were a mountain. This is a symbolic description. Always take every word of the Bible literally unless God tells you to take it figuratively. This passage is an example of the latter. Something gigantic, as or like a mountain, is cast into the sea and causes a third part of the sea to become blood.
 A similar occurrence was experienced in Moses' day: And the Lord spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. And the fish that [were] in the river died (Exodus 7:19-21).

 It's easy (relatively speaking) to get the bible right - we simply must follow God's direction. It is therefore relatively easy to root out false or incorrect doctrine, if we follow God's rules.

 The Rapture is biblical - it's not at all ambiguous and, as I have stated, if we read what God is telling us, we can easily understand the scriptures and in doing so - we get a clear cut vision of future events as are related to this topic in the Rapture, as well as the totality of Revelations as well as Daniel - which are the two major end times books found in the bible.

Hope this helps my friend.

Bronzesnake

Welcome to CU archer.

I didn't really look over the link you provided, but I can provide a passage for you.

2Pe 3:3  Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

The Lord is coming back to earth!   We might not all agree as to when, in relation to tribulation period, but its clear from His word He will return and collect His children.   Many believers have different views about it, but one thing we all should agree on is that one fact.   He is coming back, and we shall see him as he is!

Grace and Peace!

Another welcome, Archer.

Wolhberg is a proponent of "replacement" theology, which simply says that Israel has not been set aside, they have been dismissed, put away, forgotten, eliminated, and have been completely replaced by the Church, or Body of Christ. The Church is now the "true" Israel.

It is funny that he tries so hard to tie dispensationalism to a secret plot by the Jesuits, when replacement theology itself was first propounded and then seized upon by the RCC in the mid-350's. Replacement theology is the brainchild of Augustine.

He also fails to examine scripture itself, instead making a lot of generalizations, using the broad brush of "guilt by association" in tying together a string of people with Ribera.

Further, his contentions rest solely upon a belief that we currently are in, and have been in for over 1500 years, a "tribulation" period, which of course does not play well with the 7 years spoken of in Daniel and Revelation....nor does it match up with the Millennial Kingdom.

He also contends that such a thing as a "rapture" does not take place, and has no place in the thought or writings of the early church. I'll just leave you with this excerpt from a sermon by Ephraem the Syriac, Bishop of the Syrian Church in the late 200's/early 300's. The title of his sermon was "On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ and the End of The World".

"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

It is rather clear from Ephraems words that he, at least, believed that:
1. There was a coming tribulation period.
2. That there was a coming anti-christ.
3. That the Chuch (saints and elect) will be removed BEFORE that tribulation.

Finally, casting the RCC as the arch-type of the Anti-Christ spoken of in scripture requires one to follow a hermeneutic of allegory and spiritualization. Whereas scripture refers to the anti-christ (or beast) as a specific person in numerous places, allegorization allows this to be set aside, and replaced with an organization. Were we to do that, then one should also consider the JW's, the Mormons, Islam, Shinto, etc. etc. as candidates for the A/C.  Possible? Yes. Plausible? No, not in light of the entirety of God's Word. And certainly not unless one is willing to throw away all common sense.

Good luck.