TITHE AND OFFERING???

[dandirom]

Blademan,

I must agree with this totally. A house of worship need not be lined with gold, silver and crystal. That money would be better spent on helping the poor which is commanded of us to do in the NT even after the law.

Exactly. And the ever increasing claim of many but not all tithing proponents that 'God cannot move if we don't give to the church' is in itself blasphemous.  'God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things...' Any True Christian has an obligation to give to those in need - especially to believers in need - and if you are a True Christian, it won't be out of compulsion but cheerfully.  10%, 25% 50%, Everything - if it is in your heart to give then do so.  It is a pity though that many churches use tithing as an excuse to get money from the congregation - even when it is not needed. 

[Blademan]

Read what I said again. I did not say anything of that sort.

What I was after is your understanding of the Bible's definition (use) of the term "increase". Sorry if I didn't make that more clear.

Thanks

[Soldier4Christ]

What I was after is your understanding of the Bible's definition (use) of the term "increase". Sorry if I didn't make that more clear.

Thanks

.

The word increase that was used in the OT in reference to tithes was tebû'âh. This word specifically means =  income, that is, produce, fruit, gain, increase, revenue.

As we see from the explanation above it does mean income. As I said before, the primary income of these people at that time was the things that they had raised. Let's use an example here. A certain person started out with one bushel of wheat seeds to plant for that year. Then at the end of the year, after harvest was complete, he had 101 bushels. That would make his increase (income) to be 100 bushels. Therefore his tithe would have been 10 bushels.

As I also said, most of us today do not deal in crops but in cash. So our increase is in cash, the fruit of our labor. IF WE WERE UNDER THE LAW today then we would be required to tithe our increase (income, gain, revenue) which would be whatever we had gained for that year.

However we are under Grace not under the law. Therefore we are to have grace when we give (tithe) for the needs of God's work and for the poor.

[GKB]

There is no new testament tithe that i can find (by way of order to Christians to give to church). so the requirement is not the ten percent we are taught!

now here the kicker, we were commanded to give according to the needs of the people and from the heart...that sometimes meant that we sell all of our possesions to do so.

the church needs to have rent paid, electricity (the bills), the pastor needs to eat, etc.
but if i am faithful in my giving (tithe, offering, talents, time), and i fall on hard times, should the money go to the new building or to my need? i am not talking about me just not being able to handle money, I'm talking about if i lost my job, or something that i have no control over takes place, or I'm about to be homeless, should my pastor be driving around in a fancy car, out having diner and wonderful trips, new suits, etc?

i am really praying about how I'm  going to handle my tithe, because i give everything i have for the use of the lord. i have been blessed because of it, but i wonder if its because i tithe faithfully or is it because of what i do outside of church which is where i give the most.

we really need to stop manipulating gods business, and get clear answers.

what pastor out there is going to tell their member the truth about this subject? our faith is so low that we don't really believe if we told the truth we'd still be taken care of...o ye of little faith. we trust the tithe system more than we trust the Lord Jesus. how weak of us.....

i really am trying to decide how i am going to deal with this.

[Shammu]

what pastor out there is going to tell their member the truth about this subject? our faith is so low that we don't really believe if we told the truth we'd still be taken care of...o ye of little faith. we trust the tithe system more than we trust the Lord Jesus. how weak of us.....

I know a few that do, tell the truth. Course these are home style Churches, like what I belong to.

GKB, I will pray for you, that the Lord leads you in the direction he desires.

[GKB]

Thank you dreamweaver,

     your prayers are greatly appreciated...i have been moving forward in ministry, and i have started a rap session out of My home. its every Tuesday at 7pm. so far we have had three consecutive sessions. the first was about 4 people, the second, more than doubled, and the third, i had to look for extra seating.

     many are saying that they have never been blessed to this level even after spending a great deal of time in the church building, all of which i give god all the glory...i praise him for what hes doing, even if he does it through a filthy dirty rag like me. god gets the glory, all of the fruit of my lips and heart...jesus, i love him... jesus, i love you! thanks be to god for the things he has done.

     I'm saying that to say this, I will not cheat the people out of the truth. on whatever level, be it about the tithe, or about sin, or about salvation, i will tell the truth...so please dream weaver, continue to pray for me.

[dandirom]

I know a few that do, tell the truth. Course these are home style Churches, like what I belong to.

GKB, I will pray for you, that the Lord leads you in the direction he desires.

Our fellowship is also home style and the Lord has ALWAYS provided for all our needs.  We never practice tithing but we do practice giving - those who have more of something give to those brethren who lack and whatever the need of any member the Lord always touches each member who can answer that need.  None of us are ever burdened and we all give to those who need according as we 'purpose' in our heart. 

'For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye be burdened:
But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.'

[Shammu]

Thank you dreamweaver,

     your prayers are greatly appreciated...

  i will tell the truth...so please dream weaver, continue to pray for me.

I shall continue, my prayers for you GKB.

Our fellowship is also home style and the Lord has ALWAYS provided for all our needs.  We never practice tithing but we do practice giving - those who have more of something give to those brethren who lack and whatever the need of any member the Lord always touches each member who can answer that need.  None of us are ever burdened and we all give to those who need according as we 'purpose' in our heart. 

'For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye be burdened:
But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.'

AMEN!! dandirom

[Blademan]

The word increase that was used in the OT in reference to tithes was tebû'âh. This word specifically means =  income, that is, produce, fruit, gain, increase, revenue.

Please pardon my insatiable appetite for detail, and I hope you don't mind my asking, but where did you get that definition?

As we see from the explanation above it does mean income.

Would you agree that a word's use within its defining text determines which of its possible definitions actually apply? If so, then how does "income" figure into the overall picture since the "increase of..." was spoken specifically in relation to produce and animals rather than wages? Do you know of an instance where the Law demanded a tenth of one's wages if they had no fields or herds?

As I said before, the primary income of these people at that time was the things that they had raised. Let's use an example here. A certain person started out with one bushel of wheat seeds to plant for that year. Then at the end of the year, after harvest was complete, he had 101 bushels. That would make his increase (income) to be 100 bushels. Therefore his tithe would have been 10 bushels.

As I also said, most of us today do not deal in crops but in cash. So our increase is in cash, the fruit of our labor. IF WE WERE UNDER THE LAW today then we would be required to tithe our increase (income, gain, revenue) which would be whatever we had gained for that year.

But doesn't this ignore the fact that there was always currency of some sort as long as Israel existed? The towns people who had no lands or herds did indeed conduct commerce on the basis of currency, or precious metals, rather than food stuffs. How do you account for this contradiction to your statements?

Thanks for indulging my questions. 

[Soldier4Christ]

Please pardon my insatiable appetite for detail, and I hope you don't mind my asking, but where did you get that definition?

It is derived from Strong's Reference Dictionary, reference number H8393.

Would you agree that a word's use within its defining text determines which of its possible definitions actually apply? If so, then how does "income" figure into the overall picture since the "increase of..." was spoken specifically in relation to produce and animals rather than wages? Do you know of an instance where the Law demanded a tenth of one's wages if they had no fields or herds?

In the example that I gave earlier on the bushel of wheat, would that not be income provided by the Lord? Even farmers of today consider their crops as income, it is a profit if their crops come in above what it took them to plant it and a financial loss if it doesn't. In early days not all business deals were done in money. Trade in kind was frequently used. "n" bushels of wheat could purchase "n" sheep. Although there may have been "money" available it was not a common means of business transactions in all areas, certainly not amongst the early Jewish people.

But doesn't this ignore the fact that there was always currency of some sort as long as Israel existed? The towns people who had no lands or herds did indeed conduct commerce on the basis of currency, or precious metals, rather than food stuffs. How do you account for this contradiction to your statements?

It is not a contradiction. As I said above, money (coins, gold, etc) was not the only nor the major means of conducting business transactions in early times.

[GKB]

Just give a heads up, this tuesdays rap session, it was standing room only! praise the lord, i still have not asked for a tithe  or a offering, yet the increase has been coming.

[BLAD]

I started re-reading the Bible this past few weeks; i mean re-reading it from Genesis. I started Genesis 1:1 last January and now i am in Numbers. Yesterday, March 6, i just read this verse

But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. Numbers 18:24

What i infer on this, God have given the tithes for the Levites use.  The tenth of the tithe

Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe. Numbers 18:26

will be offered to the Lord.

(Anyway, to those who have forgoten the background of this verse. This is the time God commanded Moses to number the Israelites and tell them there inheritance in the land promised to Abraham.)

Well, I just want to share this. I know this were all commandments to israelites.  We in the grace period have to give what our heart desire.

[BLAD]

with regards to those people who doesn't have harvest, there were money equivalents given
example:

And those that are to be redeemed from a month old shalt thou redeem, according to thine estimation, for the money of five shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, which is twenty gerahs Number 18:16

If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:  Leviticus 5:15

What i am just showing here is that, there was money equivalent of the offerings or tithes.

[Soldier4Christ]

Thank you BLAD. I thought that I had remembered reading that but couldn't find it when this topic was brought up.

[Daughter_Of_Eve]

Sorry to interrupt, but the church that I started going to actually played the song "Give to the Lord". Has anyone heard of it? Its pretty funny. Anyway, its almost like telling you to give, or your Robing God by not giving.

Honestly, I really don't believe that you have to give. God knows that we reach out and give with our holy spirit. I don't think God would condemn us for not giving money.

God Bless
Christina