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Isn't homosexual acts of gotcha146 fornication and adultery according to the Bible and doesn't that make the actions of homosexuality sin according to the Bible?  

Isn't heterosexual acts of gotcha146 out of the marriage union fornication and adultery according to the Bible and doesn't that make the actions of unwed heterosexuality sin according to the Bible?

We lean very heavy on the homosexual and not the heterosexual.

Very good point.

We lean very heavy on the homosexual and not the heterosexual.

I agree, ollie. I (speaking for myself) tend to lean heavier on it for the simple fact that no one ever seems to dispute that heterosexual sex outside of marriage is wrong. Nor do I ever see "Pride" parades for adulterers. I do, all too often, hear how homosexuality isn't wrong, or that it's just the way someone is born, or that it doesn't affect anyone else. Since all of that is blatantly untrue, I tend to pipe in on those discussions.

When 'adulterers' come out of the closet (so to speak ::)) and try to have legislation passed saying it's an acceptable alternative lifestyle and that it harms no one and that they just can't help it - I'll be glad to join in a rousing debate! ;)

You don't see any evidence of society accepting sex between unmarried people as being ok?  What sort of sand do you keep your head buried in?

Surely homosexual sex would be more reasonably compared to sex between two unmarried hetrosexuals than adultery.

What sort of sand do you keep your head buried in?

Well, gollee.... what sorts of sand are there?

and try to have legislation passed saying it's an acceptable alternative lifestyle and that it harms no one and that they just can't help it - I'll be glad to join in a rousing debate!

I must've missed the pending legislation on that  ::)

Surely homosexual sex would be more reasonably compared to sex between two unmarried hetrosexuals than adultery.


ROFL! Does this answer your question, ollie?

Lots.  Some of it's not sand at all, like the beach at Bude, in Cornwall.

Ollie,

The Word is very clear that those who practice sex outside of the marriage covenant will go to hell; whether it's heterosexual, or homosexual sex.

However, sodomy (the actual biblical term) is so vile and so unnatural, that God will destroy civilizations over it.

When a country becomes sodomized; judgement is at the gates.

Psalm 119

Tosh.

Ezekiel 16:49
" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

Did a search and could not find the word "sodomy" in the Bible.

I did find this in Easton' Bible Dictionary:

Topics: Sod'om

Text:  burning; the walled, a city in the vale of Siddim (Gen. 13:10; 14:1-16). The wickedness of its inhabitants brought down upon it fire from heaven, by which it was destroyed (18:16-33; 19:1-29; Deut. 23:17). This city and its awful destruction are frequently alluded to in Scripture (Deut. 29:23; 32:32; Isa. 1:9, 10; 3:9; 13:19; Jer. 23:14; Ezek. 16:46-56; Zeph. 2:9; Matt. 10:15; Rom. 9:29; 2 Pet. 2: 6, etc.).

No trace of it or of the other cities of the plain has been discovered, so complete was their destruction. Just opposite the site of Zoar, on the south-west coast of the Dead Sea, is a range of low hills, forming a mass of mineral salt called Jebel Usdum, "the hill of Sodom." It has been concluded, from this and from other considerations, that the cities of the plain stood at the southern end of the Dead Sea. Others, however, with much greater probability, contend that they stood at the northern end of the sea.

Topics: Sod'omites

Text:  those who imitated the licentious wickedness of Sodom (Deut. 23: 17; 1 Kings 14:24; Rom. 1:26, 27). Asa destroyed them "out of the land" (1 Kings 15:12), as did also his son Jehoshaphat (22:46).

Where is the scripture for what you say about sodomy Psalm 119?
Is it infered from the above scriptures given in Easton's Dictionary?

Hmmmmm!   ????????????????????????????????????????????
Not sure just yet.

It was not mean't to be a comparison but a statement of what God says the acts are, adultery which makes it sin.

eh?

Perhaps I am not understanding your statement and gave a wrong not applicable response. Could you reword it?

Thanks.

I'm not sure whether your response was wrong or not, since I'm not sure what it meant.

All I was trying to say was that most homosexuals are not married, and therefore sex between them is surely more similar (sin wise) to sex between unmarried heterosexuals than it is to adultery (which is a serious act of betrayal).

This was in direct response to sinceheart's post where he was trying to draw a comparison between adultery and homosexual sex.

Ebia,

I find your quote out of Ezekiel interesting......that's the one that "churches" that have homosexual members quote quite often. You wouldn't happen to fall into that category would you?

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth AS AN EXAMPLE suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignitaries." Jude 7-8

Ollie,

"There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow, for even both these are abomination unto the Lord they God." Deut 23:17-18

I went to the Strong's Dictionary and the word sodomy was not in there, but the term sodomite and Sodom were. I don't want to get into semantics here.....the concept of sodomy (the act of two men or a man and a beast) is throughout the scripture. In the NKJV they are referred to as homosexuals, and sodomites. Other versions either water the term down or omit it.

The New Century Dictionary refers to a sodomite as one who was an inhabitant of Sodom; one who practices unnatural sexual itnercourse, esp of one man with another, or a human being with an animal.

No matter what how you cut it...it's sin and an abomination.

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor exstortioners will inherit the kingdom of God" I Cor.6:9-10 NKJV

Judges chapter 19-20 is real clear about what happens to a nation when they harbor and protect sodomites. Thousands can die....

This new legislation that has passed in Canada to speak out against sodomy ,is now a hate crime. The radical sodomites want to silence anyone who would dare confront them in their sin. It will come to the U.S. soon

I won't remain silent on the issue....

Psalm 119

ps In further reference I will use the term sodomite rather than sodomy.Although the legal definition is sodomy.

This was in direct response to sinceheart's post where he was trying to draw a comparison between adultery and homosexual sex.

No, she is drawing a comparison between sin and sin. Pick any one you like..... The point being that homosexuality IS a sin no matter what man may say or even want to believe. Obviously, it's not the only sin. However, trying to say it isn't a sin is the problem..... But since you didn't like the comparison I used, how about comparing it to bestiality? That way we stay in the order of Scripture....

Leviticus 18
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

Leviticus 20
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.

Oh yeah, that's the OLD Testament. Sorry -  ::)

Romans 1
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

And we both know there is heaps of prohibitions in Levitcus that we don't keep anymore.
Then we can get into a discussion of what St Paul was refering to with the phrases translated as "committed indecent acts with other men" if you like.

Why not just choose my comparison of sex before marriage?  That's a sin, isn't it?

What category?  Last time I looked I was a person, not a church.

That doesn't say what the "defiling the flesh" consisted of, and puts it on a par with with saying nasty things about the President.


Because it's not an accurate term.  Some people in the past have misunderstood the sins of the city of Sodom, and invented the English word sodomy.  Neither the greek nor hebrew uses Sodom or a derivative word to refer to anything other than the place and the people.

Thats because it's a definition ultimately worked backwards from an [idiotic] assumption about what the sin of the city of Sodom was.

Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but Sodom irrelevent to the argument.

...nor revilers, nor exstortioners [sic]
why not concentrate on the last two for a change?

Its a story about rape and hospitality - can you really not see that?

No.  Instead you'll spout the kind of ill-informed bigottry that will make those laws come all the quicker

The laws in the old Testament that we don't keep any more are the rituals done to atone for sin. But the sins will always remain the same because they don't come from man, they come from God. We are forgiven for them  but there are REASONS why they are sinful. Whatever is done for one's own gratification is a sin. Sin glorifies human desires and is done for self-serving purposes. Any act that is done for that reason is a sin. As Paul puts it, "Food for the stomach but i will not be MASTERED by anything." What that means is that when we do things for God's purposes rather than for self-serving purposes, then we are living life the way we were created to live it. We then have the capacity to reap abundantly because we are living according to natural (God's) laws. But when we engage in desires primarily for self-gratification, then we are living for ourselves. That will eventually end in death because we no longer care about God's laws. The natural consequences of such acts (like std's) in the case of sexual sins will fall back down on us.  

This simply doesn't hold water when you look at the list of what rules we do and don't keep.  Unless you use a very contrived definition of "rituals done to atone..."


I don't think you meant that the way it reads.

I don't have a problem with any of that.  What I do have a problem with is the way it is applied by many people.

Ebia,

Are you a homosexual? or a lesbian? A yes or no answer will do.

Please read this article, it will dispel all the myths regarding sodomites.

http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/articles/articles/homo-heresies.htm

Where will you spend eternity?

Psalm 119

I understand now.

Thanks.

No.

If you want to debate the subject, you can do it here.
I think thats up to God, don't you?

If you want to get technical, Ebia, what i meant was that the rituals done to atone for sin are no longer considered the law. What is consider law according to the New Testament is what is right and wrong. That law comes from God.

Fine - that's not what I thought you meant.  Although I'm not sure thinking about that as "law" is always helpful, as the word law tends to imply a list of [slightly arbitrary] rules rather than the huge guiding principles of the gospels.

ollie,
Hmmmmm!  ??
Not sure just yet.

How about now?  ::) Nowhere is ebia trying to condone any of the heterosexual sins, just the homosexual ones.

And we both know there is heaps of prohibitions in Levitcus that we don't keep anymore.

Let's look at the whole chapter of Leviticus that deals with 'unlawful sexual relations'......
6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations.
7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother.
8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife;
9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister,
10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter
11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father
12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister
13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister
14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations
15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law
16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife
17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter
18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living
20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman
23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal

I left out menstruation and child sacrifice since they aren't pertinent to this.
So tell me which of these others you condone beside the homosexuality ones? Which of the 'unlawful sexual relations' are now ok?

Then we can get into a discussion of what St Paul was refering to with the phrases translated as "committed indecent acts with other men" if you like.

No, let's talk about what Paul meant by this:
Romans 1
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.

What I gather is that men being inflamed with lust for men is unnatural.

Why not just choose my comparison of sex before marriage?  That's a sin, isn't it?

You can compare it to ANY sin you'd like. However, if your whole point is that homosexuals should just get married and then they're no longer sinning, you'd still be incorrect. God's law is not superceded by man's law. Man can legalize abortion or sodomy or 'common-law' marriages and it's still sin!

Why not?  Thats still a sexual sin according to leviticus.

You just answered that, by leaving out the ones concerning menstruation.

Then we can get into a discussion of what St Paul was refering to with the phrases translated as "committed indecent acts with other men" if you like.


Then what you infer is not true, and therefore cannot be what St Paul intended to imply.


The point I was trying to make above, was that homosexuality is certainly no worse a sin than sex before marriage, yet from the discussion here you'd think it was the worst possible sin in the world.

Why does everyone always evade this:

I left out menstruation and child sacrifice since they aren't pertinent to this.
I didn't think they were pertinent to this particular discussion, either sex during intercourse OR child sacrifice...... Are suggesting that these are now ok?

Romans 1
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.

"abandoned natural relations "  ::)

The point I was trying to make above, was that homosexuality is certainly no worse a sin than sex before marriage, yet from the discussion here you'd think it was the worst possible sin in the world.

No, from the discussion here the only 'sin' you defend is homosexuality. And as I've said (more than once) it doesn't matter which sin you compare it to as long as you realize that it IS a sin!

Why does everyone always evade this:
"Everyone" hasn't evaded or avoided it.

9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Passing legislation to condone a sin or having a parade to celebrate it isn't putting the sin in past tense.... "and that is what some of you WERE..."

Where on this forum is someone (anyone) saying that any of the other sins are okay? It always comes back to homosexuality getting more attention because it is the one sin that so many try to make right in man's eyes and conveniently ignoring the fact that it is still a sin!

Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Idolatry and adultery and male prostitution and homosexuality and thievery and drunkeness and slandery and swindling are wrong. But we aren't asking God for judgement on these, we are asking for mercy. And mercy is what we we will get WHEN WE ACKNOWLEDGE OUR SINS AND TURN THEM OVER TO HIM!

Just for the record, ebia, the above listed aren't a problem for me. However, I do have my own sins that I turn over to the Lord. And I will not sit back and let anyone justify them in man's eyes whether they are sins I'm guilty of or not.  
I don't believe that someone else's sins are 'worse' than mine. I believe that the worst sin is the one that we don't acknowledge! Mine would be different than yours....

 

eh?
I assume this isn't what you meant to say:
either sex during intercourse


There are plenty of ways to read this other than that which you have committed yourself to.


These are two entirely separate questions.
I don't accept that it is always a sin.  But separate, and more important to address, is the hatred that is reserved here for this particular sin.


Virtually everyone here is guilty of reviling, and everyone here is collectively responsible for the collective extortion that we in the "western" countries inflict on the rest of the world, yet I don't see a single thread addressing either.

More likely because its easier to rant about someone elses sin than address our own.


LOL

Then start acting like you mean that.

Ebia,

I'm glad to know that you're not a homosexual; but why do you keep defending the sin of homosexuality (i.e. sodomy)

Romans 1:32 states that  it's not just those who practice such things (sexual immorality) that are worthy of death but also to those who approve of such things.

Why do you defend the things that God hates?

I urge you again to read the above article on homo-heresies. I could not explain things any better.

Sincereheart,

You have laid down the scriptural evidence down , ebia has rejected it.

"Then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning, his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life." Ezekiel 33:3-4

You have given the warning along with others on this matter.

Ebia, will you heed the warning?

Psalm 119

And my reply to the original question in this thread still stands:
I agree, ollie. I (speaking for myself) tend to lean heavier on it for the simple fact that no one ever seems to dispute that heterosexual sex outside of marriage is wrong. Nor do I ever see "Pride" parades for adulterers. I do, all too often, hear how homosexuality isn't wrong, or that it's just the way someone is born, or that it doesn't affect anyone else. Since all of that is blatantly untrue, I tend to pipe in on those discussions.

I understand now.
Thanks.

 :-X

I assume this isn't what you meant to say:
You assumed incorrectly. I also incorrectly assumed that you would read the whole sentence. Let me make that easier for you.....
I didn't think they were pertinent to this particular discussion, EITHER 1)sex during menstruation OR 2)child sacrifice...... Are suggesting that these are now ok?

Can you comprehend the meaning now?

The list of 'unlawful sexual relations' are still valid.

Virtually everyone here is guilty of reviling, and everyone here is collectively responsible for the collective extortion that we in the "western" countries inflict on the rest of the world, yet I don't see a single thread addressing either.

ROFL! If you don't like the threads started - start a thread you do approve of!

More likely because its easier to rant about someone elses sin than address our own.

I said: "And I will not sit back and let anyone justify them in man's eyes whether they are sins I'm guilty of or not."  The Bible says that homosexuality (which this thread asked about) IS a sin. If you think that is unjust or unfair - take it up with God!

Amazing that you haven't answered any questions and do your best to divert the topic. Hmmmm......

Sincereheart,
You have laid down the scriptural evidence down , ebia has rejected it.

Point taken....

Um, not entirely, no.  Did you mean sex during menopause?

How so.  The fact that some of the list still applies doesn't prove that all of the list still applies.


Ok, so I haven't started any threads either, but how does that invalidate my evidence?

More likely because its easier to rant about someone elses sin than address our own.


Why do you keep singling out this particular sin?

I've had to skim over a couple of questions so far for lack of time to answer them properly

Ebia,

Let me ask you this: is God truth?  Not just is God truthful, but is God truth?

Ebia, Let's pretend for a minute that the bible doesn't say lhomosexuality is a sin. In order to understand why it's a sin, you first have to understand what sin is. Sin is simply self-glorifying behavior. Lust is a sin because it is glorifying self-gratification. Jesus says that to lust in our hearts is sinful. The only time lust is not sinful is if it is used for God's purposes such as a man and woman united in marriage because that's the way God intended it. Any other sexual act is done purely to gratify ourselves. That's why they are considered sins. Who are any of us to say what is sinful and what isn't?

Yes.  And love, etc.

Big assumption alert: that marriage is the only relationship that God intended for anybody.

Clearly untrue, as for some He intended celebacy.

Amen!  Now...what was the purpose of the Law that we are no longer under?

You don't expect me to answer that with a one word answer, do you?

Um, not entirely, no.  Did you mean sex during menopause?


My apologies..... I thought you were emphasizing the 'either' part! I haved edited it to read 'sex during menstruation'. Again, my apologies for my typo.....

How so.  The fact that some of the list still applies doesn't prove that all of the list still applies.

Some of the list? Which do you say no longer apply?

Ok, so I haven't started any threads either, but how does that invalidate my evidence?

What evidence?  ::) If you don't like the topics discussed, start a thread you do like.

Why do you keep singling out this particular sin?

I'm not 'singling' out this paticular sin. This particular thread asked about this particular sin.

Big assumption alert: that marriage is the only relationship that God intended for anybody.

Actually, what Heidi said was:
"The only time lust is not sinful is if it is used for God's purposes such as a man and woman united in marriage because that's the way God intended it."

And Scripture bears that out.....
1 Corinthians 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

My only problem with Heidi's statmewnt is that she used the word lust.  I don't really think that it is appropriate to call a married couples attraction to each other lust.

I was worried about you for a minute there sincereheart, I wasn't exactly sure I knew how to have sex during sex.  :-\  That edit makes sense now though.

I was worried about you for a minute there sincereheart, I wasn't exactly sure I knew how to have sex during sex.    That edit makes sense now though.

ROFL!  :P Actually, I'm not sure I know how NOT to have sex during sex....  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P

 ;D

No worries.

Arguably that - no-sex during menstruation.  That wasn't what I was going to say, but I realised what I was going to say makes no sense.
Nevertheless, I don't accept that because the other sexual offences listed there still stand necessarly implys they all still stand, in light of the discarding of most of the Law in Levitcus.  The others are there for clearly obvious reasons, otherwise they probably would have been discarded.

I'm objecting to this singleing out of homosexuality as hateful, unloving, and un-Christ-like, even if it is a sin.  That is a legitamate point of view.  The lack of threads condemning or even discussing equally sinful acts that we are all collectively guilty of is part of my evidence for such.


"You" in that sentence wasn't aimed at you in particular, but the collective majority on this board.

Big assumption alert: that marriage is the only relationship that God intended for anybody.

Ok, I may have misread Heidi. Sorry. It's possible to read that sentence in different ways according to where you put the missing punctuation.

Anyway, two possibilites don't have to be exclusive of all others.  This is perfectly compatible with other options being acceptable to God, but St Paul gives two examples (celebacy and marriage)

v's 9 is a pretty horrible reason to marry though.

If that's in response to my question to you...nope! Take two or three if it helps!   ;D

If not...I'll just shut up now.

No, I don't think you understand that correctly.  

Homosexual sin has been placed in the lime light for the simple reasons it is attracting so much attention to itself.  I remember when everyone was getting all upset because of all the lewdness on TV.  The difference between Homosexual sin and the rest is that this one is trying to pretend it's not a sin.  The others may be out there (and we complain) but they aren't "in our face" nor are they trying to claim it's OK.

You have NOTHING from the word of God to claim homosexual sin is anything but.

I'm sorry what was either graphic (Mr. Paste alotta pictures) or vivid about what I said?

Saved4, and sincereheart, thank you for your graphic and vivid contributions to this website.  Ahem.
(http://www.oz.net/~daveb/images/Andy_e223.jpg)



Ollie:
Isn't homosexual acts of gotcha146 fornication and adultery according to the Bible and doesn't that make the actions of homosexuality sin according to the Bible?  

Isn't heterosexual acts of gotcha146 out of the marriage union fornication and adultery according to the Bible and doesn't that make the actions of unwed heterosexuality sin according to the Bible?

We lean very heavy on the homosexual and not the heterosexual.

Thank you, Ollie.  Homosex'y can only exist "respectably" under an actual marriage sanction, for all the reasons actually cited by the gay community(benefits, insurance, etc.).

But, in order to obtain that sanction, by definition, marriage loses any meaning.


ebia: Why do you keep singling out this particular sin

Um, duh, because the homosexuals keep forcing it on us??

  (http://sc.msn.com/2{/B4JV7DOJIT1@ESPQCW-JR[.jpg)
 
 
 

Sorry, I was taking it literally.  ;D

So you're not prepared to look beyond where the most noise is to where the most suffering is?  :-\


 
Still getting upset about other people's sin rather than our own.


How many people in America still think sex before marriage is a sin?

See above.  This looks like an excuse to me.

It would take an essay, & I've better things to do than write an essay for you to build an argument off.

I'm sure they would see it the other way around.

Homosexuals are notorious for telling God what is sin and what isn't. Their defiance is what is bringing this on themselves.

Perhaps the sin of homosexuality is the sin of same gender lying with same gender and not necessarily adultery as they are not in any union or committmnt to adulterate. I have been thinking more on this and have a question.
Is adultery something that can only happen if one is married and one of the marriage partners leaves this marriage union to
have a relationship outside the marriage?
If this be so then homosexual actions are not adultery but sin of unnatural affections and lying with own gender etc.. Fornication.

God does not recognise marriage between same genders so they would never be in an adulterous situation, but in one of fornication.

Is adultery fornication but fornication is not necessarily adultery?

Any thoughts on this anyone?

Sounds like you're getting my point that comparing homosexuality to adultery is inappropriate.   Adultery involves an innocent human victim.  

They're not the only ones.

"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"

We're called to be better than the world: "He started it" just isn't good enough.

I understand where you are coming from. The fact that the world, many denominational churches, and America in particular is considering legislation to legalize and normalize many of tha aspects of these sinful acts of homosexuality does tend to make one sit up and take notice of it more than heterosexual sins.

How ever Hollywood and the entertainment industry is continually throwing heterosexual sins at us in their TV shows, motion pictures, recorded music vocals, stage shows, dancing, fashion, magazines, newspapers, and on and on and on! They are also throwing the homosexual sins at us.

God's people today have to be very discriminating in entertainment. Sometimes it is subtle and can sneak up on one before discrimination can be made. This is true of movie DVDs and video tapes where the cover description is misleading. Even the rating letter can be misunderstood. Who knows what some of these rating symbols mean except the people that apply them?

Any how I can see what you are saying.
We really need to try and concentrate on all sin and show the love of Christ towards those in them including ourselves and pray that they and us will find the spirit to overcome and be redeemed back to God through Christ.

It is you, Ebia, who miss so many points. You don't understand the concept of personal responsibility for one's actions. We reap what we sow. If homosexuals are going to play God, they are going to get flack, period. My children understand these concepts. You are saying homosexuals are not responsible for their actions and that they are not only above God's law but above human laws. If I tell God what sin is, it's going to fall back on me.

You also don't understand the concept of loving the sinner but not the sin. Real love isn't enabling someone to continue sinful behavior. You must believe that if it feels good, do it. In that case, i can see you offering an alcoholic a drink.

I really was not trying to compare homosexuality to adultery but that the action of homosexuality is the sin of adultery and the actions of heterogotcha146 out of wedlock is also adultery.

But further study has me thinking that homosexual action is a sin unto itself seperate from adultery which God relates to us in the old testament and the new.

Yes, your post where you reworded your previous post after I asked, and I replied that "I understand now" started me thinking more on it. I believe my thinking on adultery was more in the worldly sense of illicit sex than seeing it as God puts it to us in scripture.

Who's playing God here?

Putting words into my mouth again?

The only people telling God what is here is are the funtamentalists.

I understand the concept, I've yet to see anyone who uses the phrase actually show anything but hate the sin and sinner alike.  Saying you are being loving doesn't make it so.

Certainly not.  You do like to build straw men, don't you?

Ebia, no, you don't understand the concept of loving the sinner but not the sin. I hope you don't have children because you would not be able to let them know when their behavior is out of line. You see that as hate. You're very confused. I'll pray for you.

Ollie, if you leave your spouse to lie with another person(or beast, etc.), it's adultery.  B/c the underlying intent of the indictment of adultery is to remedy the offended person--that is, the betrayed spouse, what would it matter who or what you're doing it with?

If you're not married, but you do it, it's fornication.

Of course, Jesus did not specify if you are married and even look on another woman.  He just said if you even look.  So in that case, it doesn't matter whether you're married or not--just looking lustfully is adultery!!

So adultery is pretty broad and inclusive, including even just the intent, and even if you are not married(which, technically, would be fornication).

This would be my understanding. :-X

I understand where you are coming from. The fact that the world, many denominational churches, and America in particular is considering legislation to legalize and normalize many of tha aspects of these sinful acts of homosexuality does tend to make one sit up and take notice of it more than heterosexual sins.

Sadly, yes. So many have let the world convince them that God's Word may be wrong. And knowing homosexuals (through the workplace or as neighbors, etc.) makes it that much harder to say it's a sin. Thanks to the open-mindedness of so many, we now have legalized abortions.  ::)  

How ever Hollywood and the entertainment industry is continually throwing heterosexual sins at us in their TV shows, motion pictures, recorded music vocals, stage shows, dancing, fashion, magazines, newspapers, and on and on and on! They are also throwing the homosexual sins at us.

Sadly, yes.

Any how I can see what you are saying.
We really need to try and concentrate on all sin and show the love of Christ towards those in them including ourselves and pray that they and us will find the spirit to overcome and be redeemed back to God through Christ.

Which is why I don't walk up to someone who is sinning and tell them they're sinning. I'm totally against the Fred Phelps' of the world who think that homosexuals are beyond God's reach. I believe in letting God use each Christian to reach the unsaved and then I believe in letting God convict them of their sin the same as He does for me. But for discussion purposes, if someone asks if homosexuality is a sin (whether that 'someone' is a homosexual or not) I HAVE to say 'yes'!  

What I see from you isn't loving correction, it's bigotted hate thinly disguised as loving correction.

Arn't we all.

Thanks.

Well, Ebia, I don't hate myself when i admit my sins. Why do you think I hate homosexuals when i agree that they are sinning? Homosexuals are no different than me. We all sin. We're all forgiven by God...provided we admit we sin. I treat homosexuals the same way i treat myself. Your assertion that I'm bigoted and hateful toward homosexuals is so far off the mark and completely unfounded. Do you hate yourself when you admit you sin? You must or why would you think other people hate others who sin? I am so glad i can admit my sins because otherwise i wouldn't be able to receive forgiveness from God. Why do you want to deny that to homosexuals?

I repeat:
What I see from you isn't loving correction, it's bigotted hate thinly disguised as loving correction.

Once you understand the forgiveness from God, Ebia, you'll understand my feelings toward homosexuals. You didn't answer any of my questions which indicates you don't understand that forgiveness.

Thanks for this input. I am still studying this topic. Anything you find and can contribute would be very appreciated.   :)

Sooooo, you give up, or you have no argument?  ;D

Neither, I decline to answer your question, at least for the moment.

I do (well, as well as any of us can) and I don't.


Which question, specifically, did you want answered.  Since most of your questions are based on misunderstandings and misrepresentations of what I've previously said, they generally aren't worth answering in direct terms.

I patiently await your answer then.   ;D

Don't hold your breath.

I'll repeat my questions. Ebia, do you hate yourself when you sin? Or do you know you're forgiven and seek to make amends? if you don't understand those questions i can see why you have a hard time communicating with people.