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Theology => Debate => Topic started by: BUTCHA on June 15, 2004, 08:09:03 PM



Title: the nicene creed
Post by: BUTCHA on June 15, 2004, 08:09:03 PM
 And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

in this part of the creed what is meant by " And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. "
is it in god all inclusive, and teaching church?


Title: Re:the nicene creed
Post by: ebia on June 16, 2004, 06:08:26 AM
And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

in this part of the creed what is meant by " And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. "
is it in god all inclusive, and teaching church?
the last bit looks like gibberish to me - you might like to rephrase your question


Title: Re:the nicene creed
Post by: michael_legna on June 16, 2004, 03:52:31 PM
And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

in this part of the creed what is meant by " And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. "
is it in god all inclusive, and teaching church?

First it does not mean that it is the Roman Catholic Church, that is not the intent of the word catholic in the phrase.

But that being said here is what the Roman Catholic Church feels is intended by that phrase. (paragraph numbers are from the Catechism)

811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic." These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other, indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.

813 The Church is one because of her source: "the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit." The Church is one because of her founder: for "the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, . . . restoring the unity of all in one people and one body." The Church is one because of her "soul": "It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church's unity." Unity is of the essence of the Church

823 "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as 'alone holy,' loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God." The Church, then, is "the holy People of God," and her members are called "saints."

830 The word "catholic" means "universal," in the sense of "according to the totality" or "in keeping with the whole." The Church is catholic in a double sense:
First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church." In her subsists the fullness of Christ's body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation" which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

832 "The Church of Christ is really present in all legitimately organized local groups of the faithful, which, in so far as they are united to their pastors, are also quite appropriately called Churches in the New Testament.... In them the faithful are gathered together through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, and the mystery of the Lord's Supper is celebrated.... In these communities, though they may often be small and poor, or existing in the diaspora, Christ is present, through whose power and influence the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is constituted."

857 The Church is apostolic because she is founded on the apostles, in three ways:
- she was and remains built on "the foundation of the Apostles," the witnesses chosen and sent on mission by Christ himself;
- with the help of the Spirit dwelling in her, the Church keeps and hands on the teaching, the "good deposit," the salutary words she has heard from the apostles;
- she continues to be taught, sanctified, and guided by the apostles until Christ's return, through their successors in pastoral office: the college of bishops, "assisted by priests, in union with the successor of Peter, the Church's supreme pastor":
You are the eternal Shepherd who never leaves his flock untended.  Through the apostles you watch over us and protect us always.  You made them shepherds of the flock
to share in the work of your Son....

865 The Church is ultimately one, holy, catholic, and apostolic in her deepest and ultimate identity, because it is in her that "the Kingdom of heaven," the "Reign of God," already exists and will be fulfilled at the end of time. The kingdom has come in the person of Christ and grows mysteriously in the hearts of those incorporated into him, until its full eschatological manifestation. Then all those he has redeemed and made "holy and blameless before him in love," will be gathered together as the one People of God, the "Bride of the Lamb," "the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God." For "the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

870 "The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines".

I hope this gives you some idea of how this phrase is interpreted by the vast majority of Christians in the world today.


Title: Re:the nicene creed
Post by: ollie on June 16, 2004, 06:16:23 PM
Quote
And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.


Quote
in this part of the creed what is meant by " And one holy,
Sanctified, purchased with Christ's shed blood.

Quote
catholic,
Universal,  in heaven and earth.

 
Quote
and apostolic Church. "
That, about which the apostles preached. Which is Christ's.

Quote
is it in god all inclusive, and teaching church?
???

Ollie


Title: Re:the nicene creed
Post by: BUTCHA on June 16, 2004, 09:27:37 PM
 michael_legna




   thank you that helped a lot, i spent a lot of time trying to find that. guess you need to know were to look.



Title: Re:the nicene creed
Post by: CrystalPc on June 20, 2004, 06:02:14 AM
And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

in this part of the creed what is meant by " And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. "
is it in god all inclusive, and teaching church?
It is The body of Christ, catholic is only the word used for universal. We know that the body is of many members...
from  many church's who have been born-again. And follow Jesus rather than man's doctrine.


Title: Re:the nicene creed
Post by: michael_legna on June 21, 2004, 08:36:19 AM
michael_legna

   thank you that helped a lot, i spent a lot of time trying to find that. guess you need to know were to look.


It is easy for me I have taken the entire Catholic Catechism and put it in a Access database (I do database programming along with my network responsibilities) so searches like that are easy.


Title: Re:the nicene creed
Post by: ollie on June 24, 2004, 09:45:49 AM
michael_legna

   thank you that helped a lot, i spent a lot of time trying to find that. guess you need to know were to look.


It is easy for me I have taken the entire Catholic Catechism and put it in a Access database (I do database programming along with my network responsibilities) so searches like that are easy.
Was there a "catholic catechism" before the Nicene creed was drawn up to insure church members would know its meaning after its inception? Which came first, the Nicene creed or the catechism to explain it?


Title: Re:the nicene creed
Post by: michael_legna on June 25, 2004, 12:58:08 PM
michael_legna

   thank you that helped a lot, i spent a lot of time trying to find that. guess you need to know were to look.


It is easy for me I have taken the entire Catholic Catechism and put it in a Access database (I do database programming along with my network responsibilities) so searches like that are easy.
Was there a "catholic catechism" before the Nicene creed was drawn up to insure church members would know its meaning after its inception? Which came first, the Nicene creed or the catechism to explain it?

I am not aware of one prior to the Nicene creed but then the illiteracy rate was such that there would have not been much call for one.  

Instead lay followers of Christ relied on the members of the clergy to instruct them, explaining both the Creed (which is really just a summary short enough to be memorized by all) and the Scriptures.


Title: Re:the nicene creed
Post by: ollie on June 25, 2004, 05:44:07 PM
michael_legna

   thank you that helped a lot, i spent a lot of time trying to find that. guess you need to know were to look.


It is easy for me I have taken the entire Catholic Catechism and put it in a Access database (I do database programming along with my network responsibilities) so searches like that are easy.
Was there a "catholic catechism" before the Nicene creed was drawn up to insure church members would know its meaning after its inception? Which came first, the Nicene creed or the catechism to explain it?

I am not aware of one prior to the Nicene creed but then the illiteracy rate was such that there would have not been much call for one.  

Instead lay followers of Christ relied on the members of the clergy to instruct them, explaining both the Creed (which is really just a summary short enough to be memorized by all) and the Scriptures.
Interesting.

Thanks,
Ollie


Title: Re:the nicene creed
Post by: BUTCHA on June 25, 2004, 09:06:04 PM
hes good huh ollie