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I am deeply saddened by how few are and actually will be saved. I can understand why Jesus wept so much. There is so much pride, arrogance, and God-hating in the world. It is simply much easier for human beings to believe in our own opinions instead of Christ's words because it feels good to think we're smart. Some days I just have to grieve the state of the human condition. What's even sadder is that all have a chance to be saved. But unfortunately, humility is too high a price for most people to pay for their salvation.

I have read your posts, for what, about a year now? You have a vast knowledge of the word. Having said that i do not understand how you can so negative.



I am deeply saddened by how few are and actually will be saved.

You and I do not know  His accounting nor do we understand His grace and mercy




I can understand why Jesus wept so much. There is so much pride, arrogance, and God-hating in the world.  

Sure He wept but He did the saving  it is done. We are to rejoice in His VICTORY!


 It is simply much easier for human beings to believe in our own opinions instead of Christ's words because it feels good to think we're smart.  

Think on this when your brothers/sisters in the Lord challenge you.


 Some days I just have to grieve the state of the human condition.    



 Amen. But  do not forget the price was paid in full.

  What's even sadder is that all have a chance to be saved. But unfortunately, humility is too high a price for most people to pay for their salvation.


Salvation is not by chance, with your knowledge of scripture how can you write such a statement? Heidi, you say  “ humility is too high a price for most people to pay for their salvation.” ? Did you drop your pride to pay for your salvation?  You know you didn’t .  Not one of us sinful people can do anything to  pay for our salvation. You know this passage…

 Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 Maybe  fighting the good fight, via the forums, for so long has pushed the picture of His victory aside.

Phil 4:8,9

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
KJV
We are failing humans some times we need to rest in Him, retreat, regroup. You know well He is our peace our rest.  

I think she was talking about not being humble enough to "fully" trust Jesus for our salvation.  Some think we must still add our good works to His sacrifice for salvation.

Faith + anything is not the Good News of Christ.

Because of God's grace He allows us by faith to stand in His grace. The good works that He prepared for us are the fruit of the grace in which we stand.


Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only this, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering works perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope: and hope doesn't disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were yet weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly... But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God's wrath through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by his life... The law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly; that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 5:1-21)

for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

AMEN SIS!!![/b][/u]  I see God there.  Nicely posted.   :)

This is my covenant to them, when I will take away their sins." Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Rom 11:27-29)

We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30)

But arise, and stand on your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose: to appoint you a servant and a witness both of the things which you have seen, and of the things which I will reveal to you; delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom I send you, to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' (Act 26:16-18)

But, brothers, I wrote to you boldly, as reminding you in part, because of the grace that is given to me by God, that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the nations, ministering the gospel of God, so that the offering up of the nations might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (Rom 15:15-16)

And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful to me, but not all things profit. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. (1Co 6:11-12)


It doesn't matter that the Catholics call them "New Law" sacraments.  You still can't get there from works of the OLD or NEW law.

You can't finish something that you never started...being "weak through the flesh"


For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law couldn't do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; (Rom 8:2-3)


"Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?"


This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain, if indeed it is even in vain? Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working powerful works in you, is it by works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Therefore know that those of faith, these are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations through faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all nations be blessed." So then those of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are out of works of the Law, these are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith." But the Law is not of faith; but, "The man who does these things shall live in them." (Gal 3:2-12)

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Faithful is the Word, and as to these things, I desire that you strongly affirm that those believing God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men...And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, so that they may not be unfruitful. All those with me greet you. Greet those who love us in the faith. May grace be with you all. Amen. (Tit 3:4-15)


Works are fruits of those believing God.

Christ's death was/is a victory! He did not die in vain. The number of those who are saved will be exactly correct.

Those who are saved from , how do i say this, hm , before the cross were many.  2000 years ago our numbers were only about 12.  He is the builder of His church He is the Master carpenter. He does not fail.


Praise to the Holy One , King, Saviour, Lord , Sovereign, Mighty God,...

Amazing love how can it be that my King would die for me...

People tend to get so caught up and confused by this.  James isn't saying that works must go along side grace for salvation.  He's saying that a faith that isn't active isn't a faith.  He is characterizing, not stipulating.  If one is saved, then their faith is an active, living faith.   They work, they serve, they believe and trust God, not in order to be saved, but because they are saved.  A "faith" that isn't seen in works is a questionable faith at best.

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Faithful is the Word, and as to these things, I desire that you strongly affirm that those believing God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men...And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, so that they may not be unfruitful. All those with me greet you. Greet those who love us in the faith. May grace be with you all. Amen. (Tit 3:4-15)

For if Abraham was justified [or, declared righteous] by works, he has [grounds for] boasting-_but_ not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "But Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." But to the one working, the reward [or, his wage] is not accounted [or, considered] according to grace, _but_ according to debt. (Rom 4:2-4)

- True faith shows itself by its children

 Abraham our father, he was justified [or, shown to be righteous] by means of works, having offered Isaac his son upon the altar, was he not? [Gen. 22:9] Do you see that his faith was working together with his works, and by means of the works his faith was perfected? And [so] was fulfilled the Scripture, the one saying, "But Abraham believed [or, trusted] God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called a friend of God.  So you* see that a person is justified [or, shown to be righteous] by means of works and not by means of faith only. So likewise also Rahab the prostitute was justified [or, shown to be righteous] by means of works, having welcomed the messengers and having sent [them] out by a different way, was she not? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also one's faith without such works is dead. (Jam 2:21-26)


Justified as used in James is to be "shown to be righteous".  

Context showing ones faith to another...Giving evidence of ones faith to another.

Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. (Jam 2:18)

That's not what we find in the New Testament. The 12 apostles were Christ's close associates, but there were MANY who believed and were also genuine disciples. So let's stop promoting this falsehood that there were only "12" disciples.

There were (and will also be) only "twelve apostles of the Lamb" who will sit on 12 thrones ruling the 12 tribes of Israel, and having their names engraved in the 12 foundations of the wall of the Heavenly Jerusalem. Obviously, Judas is not among these, but Paul is.

But there were also 70 sent out as evangelists, and outside of those there were still others who followed Christ, many being faithful women. There were also the disciples of John who followed the Lord after the Baptizer's death.

In Matthew 8, we find a leper who worships Christ, and a centurion who believes on Him. We also find Peter's mother-in-law who ministers to Christ and His apostles. Then we find a demoniac in Gadara who is cleansed of his demons and not only worships Christ, but wants to remain with Him, and who  is told to go and preach the Gospel to his own people.

In Matthew 9 we find Matthew joining the disciples, Jairus trusting Christ, the woman with the issue of blood trusting Him, two blind men trusting Him, and who knows how many trusting Him as "HE WENT ABOUT ALL THE CITIES AND VILLAGES, TEACHING IN THEIR SYNAGOGUES, AND PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM, AND HEALING EVERY SICKNESS AND EVERY DISEASE AMONG THE PEOPLE" (Mt. 9:35).

We could go right through the Gospels and enumerate many others beside the 12 and the 70 who genuinely followed Christ.
But, as it is today, so it was then. All believers are not always disciples or "followers" or walking in the steps of Christ. But there were many who believed in Christ before His crucifixion, including the Samaritan woman and many Samaritians.

While the sum total of believers will be "small" in comparison to the totality of humanity, it will still be "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Rev.7:9).

God has not elected some to Heaven and others to Hell. He is not willing that any should perish, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.

The sad truth is that the Church on earth has been neglecting,  and continues to neglect it's mandate, which is to "preach the Gospel to every creature".  In the city where I live, there is NOT ONE SINGLE CHURCH WHICH POSTS THE GOSPEL MESSAGE IN THE DAILY NEWSPAPER EVERY DAY, OR ON SECULAR RADIO, OR ON SECULAR TV. How is it in your cities?

Allinall,

I need to have you define just how you are using the word salvation here. Since we don't have context to define the different uses the Bible uses with this word.  Redemption is used as well but is it always used for Christ's objective work only.

Salvation:  Atoned, Redeemed, Justified, Sanctified, Forgiven and Purchased.  Saved from sin's penalty, being saved from sin's power, and to be saved from sin's very presence in eternity with Jesus.   :)

That help?

O for petes sake Sower. I said nothing about disciples! At some point in history i would bet one count count 12 who would have called them selfs christians.  My post was not  said as a "TRUTH"  but a generalized statment that  we as christians are growing in numbers. Most folks would know that as  i am sure you do.

Allinall,

That is a lot of terms but not all can be applied the same.
That is what I was assuming but thought I better get it clarified.

Take out the word, redeemed and the last sentence and those are inclusive terms which apply to mankind. That is Christ overcame death, redeemed all of creation. That work is called the objective work of Christ. It brought man back  into the potential of being in communion with Him once again. Until Christ came man was destined to be eternally separted from body and soul as well as from Christ.

In the Bible, in context, the word salvation is also used for this work. However salvation also applies to the believer who must separate himself from all of mankind.  That is the choice we make to either accept Christ or reject him. Both decisions are active, not passive.
Once we do that we fall under the other terms, which make use of the provisions also provided by Christ's work but does not apply to unbelievers until they accept Christ. We are justified by faith, we separate ourselves from mankind and begin a relationship with Christ which is a life long process.
Getting back to the "works" issue.  Many use all works to apply it to the subjective work of Christ. Man has no part whatsoever to play here, works of any kind will have no effect whatsoever. It is involuntary from man's perspective.
His response to that gift is voluntary.
However, the faith part is where the works of righteousness comes into play. You used it as a sanctifying process. You have separated it from what it actually is which is a continual process of 'being saved'. Faith is works righteousness and is salvation of the believer. There is no absolute 'saved' at the moment of acceptance and repentance.  Faith if it is active and continual, cannot save in a moment. That is why you use the 'faith +" wording which is not correct. It is just faith but also not faith alone which you use to separate the process of salvation into segments which is not Biblical.
Now, if faith has no works it is dead, which you stated correctly. However with works it is alive, faith is being strengthened, is being perfected, we are become more perfect IN CHRIST, however, we will not ever reach perfection in this lifetime. At any time in an individuals life he can change his mind, can regress instead of increase in faith. He can completely fail with 'works righteousness', and not be saved. It is never he is saved on some instant mental assent and then the rest of his life is inconsequencial and some sort of thankfulness. Fruits testify to faith. As long as there is fruit you have faith. No fruit, branch is cut off.
That is why 'eternal security' in unbiblical as well as losing ones salvation. You don't have it until death. When your life is complete, where you stand in relation to Christ is what matters, not where you started.

Sojourner:

You have the Orthodox or Roman Catholic concept of justification because you have not looked carefully at what the Bible actually teaches.

Faith is not simply "mental assent" but absolute trust and confidence in the living God and His written Word [or spoken Word when the written Word was still not complete]. Scripture repeats again and again: "Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was IMPUTED unto him for righteousness, and he was called the Friend of  God" (Jas. 2:23).

What does this mean? Have you ever sat down to truly understand this statement. A man, a sinner, believes God and God turns around and puts HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS to that man's spiritual bank account? How can than be?

1. First of all, our righteousness counts for nothing -- in God's sight it is merely "filthy rags".

2. Unless we are as perfect as God Himself, we cannot enter Heaven.

3. Since we cannot earn our salvation, since our own righteousness is unacceptable, since we are all sinners, since the wages of sin is death, we are all lost, without hope, and without God.

4. But God already knew this, therefore prepared Himself a Lamb. This sinless Lamb, who is GOD manifest in the flesh, not only took all our sins upon Himself, but rose again from the dead so that we might be justified --- DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE.

5. The moment a sinner BELIEVES GOD, which means he believes the Gospel, believes what God has said about His Son, believes on the son and his finished work on the cross as the Lamb of God, the moment a sinner repents -- turns from sins and idols to the living God and the Lord Jesus Christ -- HE OR SHE IS JUSTIFIED, DECLARED RIGHTEOUS, DECLARED AS PERFECT AS GOD. This means that the moment a believer dies, he enters into Heaven! On what grounds? (1) God's grace (2) Christ's finished work (3) justification by faith alone in Christ and His finished work plus nothing.

This is what it means when Scripture says "Abraham [Sower, Sojourner, whosoever] BELIEVED GOD and it was IMPUTED to him for righteousness".  

This is a GIFT of God -- the gift of eternal life. Those who receive the gift of eternal life become "new creatures", "God's workmanship" "created unto good works" (Eph. 2:10).  Don't confuse justification with sanctification, and sanctification with glorification.

Sower,

You are correct in that it is what the Orthodox Church believes which is the Apostolic Church. What you describe is the grain of falsehood started by St Augustine, a western Bishop, who teachings evertually became the backbone of Roman Catholicism. The forensic theory of salvation was then taken by Anselm  and Abelard who further developed the theory and then Reformers adopted it as well. Part of that theory is also what is called the pen-sub theory. (Penalty - Substitution)  It is the one thing they did not throw off in their break with Rome.

The error they made is taking only one of the medaphors and made it the only one to describe salvation. Righteousness is given in the share in which we participate in God's Grace.  We are not declared perfect, or not guilty at the moment of belief. This righteousness is not given as total or complete. It is also not external which the forensic theory maintains but internal.. Meaning it is not real.  It is protestants who have put little boxes around terms such as justification and sanctification.  The Bible does not, they are part and parcel of the same living experience of the Christian. A growth which starts with faith and ends in death. Faith and righteousness are actually given to us, not imputed with the forensic meaning, external and not really ours. As we increase in faith, the righteousness increases and the Spirit in us. Salvation is all grace and mercy.
It is only because Rome attached merit to it prior to the reformation that Luther and those since have been adament with regard to works and righteousness that they overlook the correct understanding that the Church had from which Rome broke.
Secondly, it is not reality. Do you actually see any perfected Christians here on earth? That is the unreal part. The whole NT speaks about the journey which would not even be necessary if we were declared not guilty and perfected. Incidently that is what we were created for in the first place. We were to bring His creation as a living sacrifice to Him. That was Adams work, why would it be any different for us. We are the same human essence, right?

In so far as I am faithful and live my faith well, I am righteous. It is accounted to me, not imputed externally.
In as much as I sin I am unrighteous and need constant forgiveness and if we grow, we should sin less, rid ourselves of sinful habits and live a life of love to all. Whatever unrighteousness still remains upon death is burned away and I am made pure or perfect. I Cor 3:15

I looked very carefully at what the Bible teaches and what was taught from the beginning. It has not changed from the beginning, notwithstanding Roman and Protestant innovations.

Our 'works righteousness' counts for  everything, we were specifically made for them. the filthy part deals with trying to do the works of the law to earn salvation.

This is true, I explained that above, I Cor 3:15.

That describes our condition before Christ's death. We cannot earn by works, so He provided a free gift for all men, in fact all of creation. Since then, we have our hope in Christ because He was the victor over death. We no longer need die. We pass from this life to the next life. Spiritually and physically eventually.

Not exactly. He conquered death. He provided for the forgiveness of sins but did not do away with sin.

If that be so, you should hope that everyone dies immediately upon belief. The reality is extremely different. It is protestantism through and through. It is not the Gospel once given for all. By your account Revelation was not given until sometime in the 16th and 17th century. There are as many views and divergent views even from the original reformers which gives clear evidence that it is not the Gospel once given. Who has the right story line. It comes down to what each really wants to accept.  We are justified by faith. Puts us in communion with God. Faith is worked out during the rest of our lives. This would not be possible if it were not for the finished work of Christ which made communion possible again That is justification which all men have available as well but faith activates for each individual who avails him/herself of that Gift.
It is all a gift. But the Gift first is to ALL MEN. It is up to us to receive it and then live in Gods Grace and Mercy.

Works come BECAUSE of salvation! Works without faith and love are meaningless!! How can one be thankful, joyous, hopeful, peaceful if he knows he isn't saved?????What do you think PRODUCES all of those fruits of the spirit, Sojourner????????

Heidi,

No, by Grace, works comes from faith, and faith brings salvation. That living faith IS salvation, not the result.

Oklahoma Howdy to Sojourner,

It really doesn't make any difference how many times you say it, works has nothing to do with salvation.

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=3616 (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=3616)

The Gospel of the Grace of God is not a works Gospel. Grace is an undeserved GIFT from God. It wouldn't be a gift if one had to pay for it. The facts are simple, Jesus Christ paid the entire price on the cross. The thief on the cross next to Jesus was saved without any works except evil. Salvation is not on the installment credit plan where it is repossessed if you miss a payment of works. Salvation is immediate, the second that you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour.

It's really very simple.

Salvation is (a GIFT) by GRACE, through FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST JESUS! Jesus Christ finished the work for our salvation on the cross. Read and study the link I gave you and you might understand. Faith is belief in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Blackeyedpeas,


Depending how and for whom your first clause is referencing, I can say that it is immediate and WITHOUT any acceptance at all. You have confused what Christ did which was objective and respective of man was involuntary.  

It is, expecially when we have 2000 years of it being the same as lived, believed and experienced versus your opinion of it.



Salvation, Grace, Faith, they are all a Gift, your very breathe is a Gift. If what you say in the quote above and joined with this one would make you a universalist. That is Christ's objective work on the Cross was for mankind. All men have been saved, All men have been made alive. They all now can be called by Christ during their lives and for all generations hence.
On the other hand, you could be a Calvinists who sticks to a psuedo-calvinistic idea that Christ died ONLY for those who will be saved. The saving of men then is absolute and we are mere pawns  and you would have no idea if you were one of them or not. Faith than has nothing to to with it because the call is irresistable and forordained to occur.

Either you are one of these two, those, I believe, are the only two that so believe.

If you are trying to articulate the Gospel as the Apostles received it, then it is thus.  Man lays hold of that saving Grace (justified) by faith.  It is man's willful response to the free Gift of Christ's work. It is what separates you from all of mankind.  However, faith is an active, life-long commitment. I can even go along with faith alone, if you use the definition of the Apostles. They didn't need to add the alone because faith IS active, it is evidenced by good works, 'works of righteousness' and that has nothing to do with earning which is of the law or referencing Christ's work which has been done for all.
You can continue to believe your positon but it is not the Gospel once given. That is clearly evidenced in the living history of that faith.

That is precisely correct. You accept it by faith and then it is a life-long sinful struggle that the new creature(spirit) wars against the old (flesh) and there is never a time in this life that you can say you are 'saved'. That does not mean you cannot have full confidence or even doubt your faith, but it is not what mostly protestants proclaim with this OSAS theory.

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;
WITHOUT ACCEPTANCE of Jesus Christ as God - THERE IS NO SALVATION.  Your rebuttal makes no sense.

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas; Sojourner - I see no "opinon" in BEP's answer.  It is taken directly from scripture.  Dozens of verses.

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;Now you make some sense.

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas; Huh????  ???  

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas; It was for mankind. ALL mankind who accept Him!

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;Blackeyedpeas is no more "separate than you or me - nor does (near as I can tell) he pretend to be.

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas;  Huh?  What 'other way' is there?

  Yes, faith IS a verb; which is why someone who has it is active in the faith.

sojourner said in response to Blackeyedpeas; Huh???  ???

Sojourner - if you ask me, you are arguing because you will argue with anything.

Judgenot,

That may be because you don't understand salvation. Here are the verses dealing with Christ's objective work and to who recieved:
Roman 5:15-19; John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; Dan 12:2; II Cor 5:18-19; I Cor 15:20-22;
Col 1:20, there are more.

This is also the meaning of the Incarnation. Do you believe in the Incarnation.

Quoting scripture is not the problem. It is in the interpretation of those versus. That is where it is opinion because it is what you think it is or should be, not what has been taught and believed from the Apostles. Or are you really saying that it doesn't matter, or that you do have a different belief but are just using the Bible as a basis.

By now I hope you are getting the drift here. See all the texts in the first quote above. Christ's work was objective. It applies to all men. He saved all men, reconciled Himself to the world. The physical world as well as mankind, ALL, ALL.. ALL will be raised, whether saved or unsaved. That is the work of Christ on the Cross.  For ALL. Now if you say these are all saved personally,. then you are a universalist.  There is not part whatsoever of man in this work. It is involuntary. All men get whether they want it or not.

What religion teaches that. Calvinism! Then only those who are able to accept him.

Now do you see how and why one needs to separate themselves from ALL MEN. MANKIND in regard to man's response to the free gift of salvation which is TO ALL MEN.

If you are trying to articulate the Gospel as the Apostles received it,
 
  Huh?  What 'other way' is there? Well, right not the Almanac gives approximately 40,000 different ways. Which one is yours?

Sojourner,

It does not appear that you read the posts on the link that I gave you. I'm not a Universalist, a Calvinist, or any other "ist" or "ism". I'm an extremely plain person who is already a member of THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. My beliefs are very simple and can be summarized easily: The Gospel of the Grace of God.

A saved and born again child of God can be deaf, dumb, blind, and paralyzed and still be safe and secure in the hands of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. Salvation does not require works because the work of Jesus Christ at the CROSS is already finished. Jesus was crucified, died, arose from the dead, and is the Living Lord and Saviour for all who believe (have faith) and ask HIM to come into their hearts as their personal Lord and Saviour. Jesus Paid It All, All To HIM I OWE. My good works are not done for salvation or to maintain salvation, rather they are my attempts to show the love and appreciation I have for my Lord and Saviour and what HE did for me. A child of God in a coma is just as saved as I am.

I have 100% assurance of my salvation. How about you Sojourner? Salavation is simple enough for small children to understand, but it appears that you have considerable confusion.

Love In Christ,
Tom

All will be raised, but unto what?

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Mat 13:49  So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50  and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It's true that the gift of Christ was/is/will be for all men, but we must believe in that gift in order that we may be raised with Christ to eternal life (is that the "salvation" you are referring to?)

Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

Joh 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.
 
Joh 6:40  And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Joh 6:47  Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me has everlasting life.

Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Jo 5:10  He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son.
1Jo 5:11  And this is the record, that God has given to us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jo 5:12  He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1Jo 5:13  I have written these things to you who believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have everlasting life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Believing....we must take an active part in this.

Works do not add to our salvation, if we do nothing more than believe on him we are still saved.

But the bible tells us that if we have Christ as our Saviour it is He who stirs us to the fruit - I could quote all the usual "fruit and works" verses, but the work most important to God (I feel) is that given in the "Great Commission", which I won't quote here, but....

2Th 2:16  Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, who has loved us and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
2Th 2:17  comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

Heb 13:20  Now may the God of peace (who brought again our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant)
Heb 13:21  make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Gracey

Tit 3:9  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. <----- I seem unable to follow this one, sometimes   :P

Blackeyedpeas,


Yes indeed, but you still fail to see the whole picture. It is finished for all men. You don't seem to correlate what happened in the fall to the reason for salvation in the first place. If Adam plunged ALL of mankind into death. Eternal death physically and spiritually then Christ is needed to overcome that death in both ways. He is the Second Adam. That is all Adam, ;right, not just half, or one-quarter. All men were justified by Christ's death.(unless you believe that only some men are born with a sin nature and we have a lot of perfect Adams as well) the Universe was justified. That is why we say his Creation was justified. For man it meant putting body and soul back to gether and all were made alive THROUGH Christ. All will rise in the last day, believer and unbeliever. Some to righteousnes,. some to damnation. Hell is a livable eternal state.

If you want to be raised to righteousness, THEN, you must avail yourself of that free gift. God does not cram it down ones throat.  We do this by believing that Christ died for us and by faith we take for ourselves God's free gift.  We do this by Faith.
Faith is active and we must by Grace and our desire strengthen that faith, perfect that faith. You may not call this salvation of the believer, but that is precisely what the Apostles taught.
You can believe any simplfied gospel you desire but it is not the faith once given by the Holy Spirit for all time.
Again, you have given no historical evidence that anyone other than possibly some in the last few centuries believed this and even this is doubtful, because I didn't believe as you  do when I was a protestant which was only a 400 year old gospel.
That may very well be because it is your salvation. Salvation based on your very own interpretation of what it should be. If there are 40,000 varieties, I'm sure some are very simple and one doesn't need do anything even though the whole Bible speaks to the contrary.
I have the Apostolic Gospel understood. What I don't understand is yours when you are trying to base it on the Bible. I don't know when to leave certain versus out in order to make yours viable.

Gracey,
Here is another verse that I missed earlier which clearly shows the difference: I Cor15:46.
In answer to your question, obviously you didn't read the texts in the post above from whence your question comes: John 5:29.

I don't think you still have it separated yet. All men will be raised, The world was reconciled, all humanity. All were given life through Christ. We are personally saved with a life IN Christ. That distinction is also made in Romans  5:8-10. Paul is separating all men from believers in these verses. We are reconciled by His death, we live by His Life.

Depends on what part you are speaking of. Christ's objective work, NO, your response, YES. By your understanding you and the Devil are saved the same way.
Gracey, all the texts you use after the above quote I used, all refer to man's personal, individual salvation. That is precisely what salvation IS.  It is not a result of salvation but a working out of our salvation. It you don't have these works of righteouness your faith is dead and you are unsaved if you persist in having no fruit. Your branch will be cut off and thrown into the fire.

I have the fruit of the spirit precisely because I am saved. But it is not I, my own self (which I have died to) which produces those fruit, it is He who is in me.


Hardly. I suppose I should add that believing man has the spirit; a gift, while satan shall never have that, even if he believes.

I don't get it; what part of John 3:15-16 don't you understand? It seems very clear, to almost everyone I know.

The things you speak of are not the cause of our salvation, but the effect of salvation. Works do not add to our salvation, they just add to our reward in heaven.

peace
Gracey

Gracey,

That is not going to help either. The Holy Spirit does not force His will over yours. If you desire Him, if you align your will with Gods he will stay and be your source of support. But if you turn against Him, He can and does leave.


Very clear. It is an ironclad assurance of God towards me. Where is my iron clad assurance toward Him. Why must I instead persevere.



Not add, IS.
If it was in fact past tense. that we are actually completed and saved, first we would be perfect. We could no longer sin. The rest of the NT would be superflous.
Unless you don't believe that God created man in His Image. Part of that is his will, his freedom to make choices, the greatest being whether he accepts Christ or not and then stays in the faith. If he has no will I can see your point. But then the Bible wouldn't even be necessary. We would all be doing precisely as our strings are pulled by God.
However, we have wills. It is our duty, our responsibility, our created goal to become perfected in His Image, the Divine nature. II Pet 1:20. That is the goal, the reward.
This is the same work Adam was required to do before the fall.  He and we are required to accomplish the same thing.  We are given the same choice as Adam. Stay with the program or not, and if not, or change course at any time, not saved in our case.

The whole of Pauline corpus is a rousing urgency unto actions on the part of believers. To be declared just by faith is just the beginning. It makes it possible for man to make the journey by Grace through faith. To be saved means to become healed, restored and gain our personhood and union with God through Christ. Why would God declare you perfect when He didn't do this for Adam. It was the purpose of Adam's creation. It is all about communion.
There is absolutely no way that we can dwell fully in Him and still sin. It just is not the reality of living in this world. That is the fallacy of theories of 'simple mental accent of faith upon believing. It is the fallacy of OSAS.
There are no glib guarantees. It really calls for a lot of faith, a lot of trust, a complete casting of ourselves upon His mercy. A wholehearted effort to uphold our end of the relationship as He gives us the ability as we grow in faith.
There are several parables that depict this journery quite clearly. The talents, the virgins.
None of these 'works' is a result of faith. It is faith.  
There is a whole litney of texts which shows that our journey is our salvation.
What would there be to endure?  Why abide?  Why run the race to claim the prize. You've been declared the winner without even entering the race.

Brother sojourner, you're making it too hard.  Relax.  Take a deep breath.  Look to the Lord and smile in His assurance.
"My yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
Nothing can be more comforting than these words from Christ.
 :)
And now, one of the oldest clichés ever – just for you:
Let go, let God!
 ;D
Sure – it is our nature to question.  God created us a curious bunch, but it’s almost as if you’re taking this to the point of questioning His validity.
May He give you answers (and rest!).  :)
JN

Hmmm.  I guess now I know what you really think.  

I'll not bother you (I didn't know I was) or respond to you again.  Your way or no way, huh.  I'll take Jesus' way.
Riddance - may Jesus touch your heart.
JN

Sojourner,

Make that a second from me. We can agree to disagree. One would have to ignore most of the New Testament to believe in salvation requiring works, and that would certainly include the favorite books quoted from the works and self-righteousness folks. You have to actually read those books before you can understand them.

I've wasted my time, but I'll leave you with one parting thought:  if you are looking for self-righteousness, you don't have any.

Tom

Acts 4:10-12

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
KJV

Good post, BEP!!

Blackeyedpeas, Judgenot,

If it is personal opinion which you did not refute one iota, then I think I can use Paul's instructions to Timothy regarding 'traditions of men'.  You claimed it was the Gospel of the Apostles yet you did not show it except to give your opinion of what you think it means.
You can, anyone can, believe what they choose, and I can respect that.  You and others can call it christian as many do,  but to call it the original gospel you will need to show it outside of your opinion.

What bothers me is such theological evasion is yet another way *NOT* to take Jesus seriously, to avoid obedience to Jesus, as a result of a dubious hermeneutic. It's a way of disobeying Jesus because of human traditions.

I did assume you might be familiar with these texts. None show that we are saved upon simple belief and faith, alone, static. I didn't think it would be necessary to list them. As to works for salvation, I don't know where you got that concept other than in your misunderstanding of what Salvation actually is for man.

I Pet 1:5
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awaken out of sleep; for now is our salvation
nearer than when we first believed.

Matt 10:22
And ye shall be hated by all men for My names's sake, but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

I John 3:2
Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. An every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.

James 2:14-26.

James 1:21-25

II Cor 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Phil 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phil 3:12
It is not as though I had already attained it, nor were already perfect...

Phil 3:14
press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Phil 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark those who so walk, as ye have us for an example,

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate, for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in and shall not be able.

Luke 9:23
If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

II Pet 3:18
But grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I Tim 4:16
Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine. Continue in them, for doing this thou shalt both save thyself and those who hear thee.

I Cor 3:9
For we are laborers together with God; ye are Gods's husbandry; ye are God's building.

There are many more of the same type of texts, if you need texts.

The issue boils down to the protestant construct of "merit" being attached to whatever the human being does in a relationship with God. Once you concede that ANYTHING human in relationship to God falls under some kind of "works/merit" definition then you have placed yourself philosophically in a box in which you HAVE to reject ALL human action and end up with a god who creates humanity then totally disregards anything human about us that he created us with. We believe God is so sovereign He can create a being in His image that is capable of sovereignly/freely accepting or rejecting Him.

If you can show that this view is not taught, has not been taught since the Apostles and has not been believed by thousands, possibly millions by now,  or show that your opinion actually is the Gospel once given to the Apostles and can be verified historically as the faith once given. Have at it.

Sojourner, I don't think I've seen one quote of Jesus's words from you. You don't seem to think His words are as important as the apostles. That's too bad because if you understood his words first, then you would understand the apostles.

Heidi,

I don't believe in any words.
I believe in Christ, who is the author of ALL words.
If your statement is a literal one, then you essentially have a Bible of only 4 Books, the Gospels with no authority..

My friend, you unfortunately confuse position with practice.  Your position is your practice.  Our practice is defined, empowered, and enacted within our unchangable position.

Confused hardly, they are one and the same. However you think you have a commonality but in reality you have religion of one. Naturally, your positon could be unchangeable but history has also shown that is impossible.
When belief is formulated from one's own mind, one's own opinion it can be nothing but belief of one. It is definitely not universal nor even communal.

Take me up on my offer. Prove that OSAS is the gospel of the Apostles.

I would really like to see you prove that the 40,000 plus theories of what salvation consists of is ONE Faith.  They all come from the same source that you ascribe as unchangeableness.

Oklahoma Howdy To Sojourner,

If you keep studying your Bible, get a little bit of maturity under your belt, and learn how to rightly divide the Word of God, you'll see it for yourself.

I've learned that debating is a waste of time in most cases. I don't mind having a friendly discussion with people of more maturity. I simply have better things to do with my time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Blackeyedpeas,

Nice copout. Don't have the answer so make a personal attack. That is always a sign or maturity.

Sojourner, how can you be a follower of christ when you don't know what He stood for?

Heidi,

I can assure you that I am a follower of the Christ. However, I can also state, based on your earlier posts, that you and I have a vast difference in what Christ stood for.
I would be interested in hearing specifically what Christ stood for based on your understainding.

I believe absolutely every word Christ said, Sojourner, and i have quoted them and explained them in detail. Not only have i not seen any quotes from you about what He said, but you specifically said that the gospels have no authority. So again, how do you know what Jesus stood for if you don't know His words, much less believe them? Just a guess? He said; "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away." Which words do you think He was talking about, Sojourner?

Pray hard.

Heidi,


Well, Heidi, what I meant by the Gospels having no authority, was that they have no authority for you.  You have simply taken a Book out of its historical context and then ascribed presuppositions to it and attempted to prove them by some texts. That is not the Gospel that was once given.

Christ is the authority, not the Bible or any part of it.  He gave us much more than what is recorded in Scripture. Scripture is a record of some of what was given and what was put into practice by the Apostles in  the early Church. Christ guaranteed that oral tradition as it started and had been the norm throughout the OT.  Christ by establishing his Church, a concrete, real visible Church here on Earth as the repository of His Truth. It has all been explained very well and practiced for 2000 years already. I don't need it revised or reinterpreted for modern man which is mostly what I see on this board.  It can only be Gospel if it has been lived, believed, practiced as given from the Beginning. God does not change, His Truth does not (has not) change(d), His plan has not changed since before Creation.
Those are the Words I believe, because they are the Word.
And, Yes, absolutely, they shall not pass away. So why in the world do you depend on your own wisdom and intelligence to figure out what has already been in existance for 2000 years and get it wrong most of the time.

You are correct.  It has always been by Grace through Faith  according to His mercy.  It has never been by works of the law or by works of righteousness.

But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; (Tit 3:4-8)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.  There is one Good News that was preached from the days of the elders to now.  It has never changed.  It has always been by faith through grace.  ALL the other stuff  comes after salvation "that we should walk in them".

Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be carried about with different and strange doctrines, for it is good for the heart to be established with grace, not with foods, in which those who have walked in them were not helped. (Heb 13:8-9)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all. But to each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (Eph 4:4-7)


Saved by GRACE through FAITH Yesterday, today and forever!

FAITH: Before Christ
"by it the elders obtained a good report"..."looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith"

Even as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Know therefore that those who are of faith, the same are children of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations will be blessed." So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

"faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it reckoned? Being in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision."..."he received a sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith while still uncircumcised; so that he might be the father of all those believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be imputed to them also"

Therefore as many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as innumerable as the sand which is by the sea shore, were fathered by one man, and him as good as dead. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and embraced them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

FAITH: While Christ
"But turning and seeing her, Jesus said, Daughter, be comforted; your faith has saved you. And the woman was saved from that hour."

"And He said to her, Your sins are forgiven. And those reclining with Him began to say within themselves, Who is this who even forgives sins? And He said to the woman, Your faith has saved you, go in peace."

FAITH: Now
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

"if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."

I Believe,


Everything that was posted is precisely correct. You have simply written scripture.
The only phrase that was not, is the quote above and that is not correct. That is precisely what personal salvation is all about. It is the correction of the person that it refers too and not the nature which was done by Christ on the Cross. If you understood the Apostolic explanation rather than some modern adaptation to it, you would also understand the difference.
Your first text of Titus 8: 3-4 disagrees with your philosophy within the very text. It does not help you and OSAS.
The false doctrines Paul has in mind is OSAS.
Show me anywhere prior to the 16th or 17th century that OSAS was believed by Christians.
Quoting Scripture  will not get you there. It is not the reading but the understanding that will get you there. But I might also add, not the understanding as you would like it to mean, but what it has always meant.

Heidi,
On a more positive note may I add Jn.3:16, Eph.2:8-9 Jn.19:30  :D
The Lord is still in charge, loving and forgiving people.

We are saved by grace, not works. Eph.1:4 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should
be holy and without blame before him in love." v.7 "In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace."
Christ died for the world. That's a whole lot of people.  ;D

God bless ,
bluelake

sojourner,


But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; (Tit 3:4-8)

Good works are good and profitable to men. But they do not save him.

"not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us"

Come out of the darkness of man's corrupted tradition and see the truth of the Good News.


Correct again.  Not what the wolves brought in as soon as the Apostles departed but the Good News preached to Abraham and given to Paul by the revelation of Christ.

By the way, you did not address the main point of my post.  Can you reconcile the Good News preached to Abraham with the "New Law" given by the Catholic Church?

I Believe,

That is precisely what I have done. I have left the rationalism, relativity, and chaos of the modern matra of believe what you want, and so can everybody else. It doesn't matter what you believe if you can find something in the Bible that can remotely backs up your theory.

I don't think you know the difference between the objective work of Christ and the subjective. That is what is confusing you and why you don't understand Titus 3:4-8.

That's called rationalism. You cannot prove your view even goes back to the 16th century, so you alledge wolves came in and cannot prove that either. Pure subposition.

I don't think I can as I don't know what the Roman Catholic says about it. I don't know anything about the 'new law' either, in fact never heard of it.

Even if I allowed that this power was given to the Apostles in the form the Catholic Church would have us believe, there is no indication that it was to be passed on to others after the apostles established the Good News.  We can see by the THE SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS and all the conflict within the Catholic Church throughout history that there has not been this wonderful unified body of tradition that you would like to claim.



You keep saying it but you have not shown it to be true.


Then what does your tradition say about the purpose and affect of the sacraments?

The Bible is the bases for Christian belief not the  workings of the early christians

Why ever would any one want to trace their beliefs to the the 1500 when we have the WORD to trace them too?


Sojurner can you show scripture for the practice of the stations of the Cross, can you show scriptural backing for the elevation of Mary? for the naming of the Pope as The Holy Father? The WORD of God is the written foundation ( blueprint). Jesus Christ is the living cornerstone, the builder, the Mastor carpinter. Keeping to the original set of blueprints would be a good idea for us all.

Reba, I've asked him that question before, more than once. But since there is no scriptural evidence for his beliefs, he skirts around the issue trying to defend the catholic doctrine instead. He is not interested in Christ's words and has said that the gospel has no authority. Therefore, it's not Christ's words he's interested in, nor what the gospel says, only the catholic church which proves my point about worshipping false gods.

I Believe,


 Holy Scripture tells us that the Saints now asleep in the Lord are very much alive:  Matthew 29:31-32 - Mark 12:26-27, "But about the Resurrection of the dead: have you not read what God said to you, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?  He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."  And again: Revelation 20:4 - "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.  And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God...They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Also, Rev. 5:8,  Rev. 8:3ff, Rev. 7:13, Hebrews 12:22-23, James 5:16.
The other texts you used have nothing to do with "Invocation of the Saints".

Part of your problem is not in understanding Orthodoxy versus Roman Catholicism. We do not consider the Deuterocanonical Books inspired. They are informative but not on the same level as Scripture.  They have never been considered inspired by the Church. Rome has, but did so quite some time after they left the Church.

That is in fact the Unity. It is how the Church, using the text you cited in Matthew 16:19 gave the power and authorty to the Church to maintain that original Gospel. It is how the 'wolves' were dealt with when false teaching has led souls away from Christ.
There will always be wolves, both Christ and Paul stated as such.  False teaching cannot come from anywhere else than from within the Church.  If outside teachings are of the nature and influence that many are being led away, then they will also speak against them as they did the Gnostics.

History is so glutted with the evidence it is a wonder you have not read any.
But to get you started I have listed some texts. I did not write them because they would make this post a dissertation.
Chapter 16, Didache
I Clement to the Corinthians: Chapters 8, 21, 28-35;
Ignatius to Ephesians, Chapters 6, 14.
Ignatius to Magnesians: Chapters 9, 11, 13.
Polycarp to the Philippians: Chapters 2, 3,8,10.
First Apology of Justin, Chapter 2.

The Holy Apostolic Tradition uses the sacraments to heal body and soul, to strenghten faith and the daily living of our faith IN Christ. They are salvfic. Anything that brings you closer to perfection, of the mind of Christ and closer to the divine nature is salvfic.


 

Reba,


The Bible may be your sole basis, however, for the True Christian, it is God's whole revelation that comprises the basis. It is that Truth, for the NT portion of the Bible, that was given to the Apostles. They taught it orally and practiced it for several decades before anything was ever written. The Church depended on the practice that was established by the Apostles and as the writtings were completed they used them in the Liturgies, but it was primarily oral Tradition that ruled the day for almost 1200 years.  It was the Tradition that provided the original content for Scripture.  It comprises some of the oral and written testimony of witness of the early Christians. Consequently, Tradition provides the hermeneutic perspective by which any biblical writing is to be properly interpreted.
In many cases the Bible is giving interpretation of practices in the early Church. It also has corrections, in fact most of the Pauline corpus is corrective regarding what he had taught earlier.

That is what I say. Most, with the exception of maybe one or two, all trace their presuppostions back to the 15th century.  You may use the Bible, but you have isolated it, taken it out of its historical context and content and attempt to devise a whole new belief system. The Bible is not self-authenticating, nor self-interpreting, nor is it a proof text.

Respective of Roman Catholic doctrine and practice I know nothing about. I can give you reasons why they should not be.  They are becoming more attuned to Protestantism regarding their traditions. The very fact they consider tradition more important than scripture, and that they have added considerably to tradition as well as changed fundalmental beliefs is the reason the reformers rebelled primarily against tradition.  It truly has been blind leading the blind.
Scripture may be the written foundation but it is not the whole foundation. Christ is the cornerstone and ALL  of what He gave is important. Not just scripture, and definitely not out of context in which He gave it.

I could not have said it any better.

Heidi,

Well, what can one say to someone who constantly intentionally misrepresents what one stated. You still refer to me as Catholic having no regard to the numberous corrections I have made to you, personally.
What I am about to explain will probably go way over your head again.
I am not Roman Catholic, however, I am catholic but Orthodox. There is a major difference. It might help you to understand if you read a little about the Orthodox. You might see the Light.

You'll see that personal authority regarding scripture is not Scriptual, that man-made traditions is what scripture is speaking about, not the Gospel and the Tradition in which it was given. That Tradition has been preserved by the Holy Spirit for 2000 years. That is the historical evidence that you lack in your personal interpretation, which is a personal revelaltion and a truth for only one. Christianity is for the masses, not for one person only.

sojourner,

Thank you for your gracious response.

I can't say that I agree with your conclusions or the basis of truth but I respect your sincerity.

I am sure of one thing and that is that I don't have all the answers.  What I do know is that when he is revealed, I will be like him.  Then I will know.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is. Everyone who has this hope set on him purifies himself, even as he is pure. Everyone who sins also commits lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away our sins, and in him is no sin. Whoever remains in him doesn't sin. Whoever sins hasn't seen him, neither knows him. (1Jo 3:2-6)

For now I will continue to seek God through His Word and His Spirit.

May God Bless you in your journey.

I Believe,

With Christ's call and your seeking, you shall find.
The difference in your understanding of salvation and the Biblical one is found in two words of your quote above to me.
"purifies himself"
May God Bless you also.

Well, Sojourner, I am a Christian, My doctrine is the bible, not a doctrine made up by men who think of themselves as holy. You don't have to believe the bible. You can believe a church doctrine instead which changes as fast as the weather. Jesus said; "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away." The words in the catholic doctrine have passed away MANY times. If one is more familiar with Jesus's words than any church doctrine, then he is following Jesus, not idol worshipping the minds of men.

"But about the Resurrection of the dead"

Context is the Resurrection of the dead (future) not those who sleep in Christ today.

"They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Nothing says that they are able to hear our thoughts and words and are to intercede for us.

He made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the surface of the earth, having determined appointed seasons, and the boundaries of their dwellings, that they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 'For in him we live, and move, and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.' (Act 17:26-28)

For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations." This is in the presence of him whom he believed: God, who gives life to the dead, and calls the things that are not, as though they were. (Rom 4:16-17)

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, our life, is revealed, then you will also be revealed with him in glory. (Col 3:3-4)

Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him; (Rom 6:3-8)

For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. (Rom 14:7-9)

Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can't inherit the Kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1Co 15:50-53)

When does the corruptible put on incorruption?  When are we all changed?  When is the corruption removed so that we may inherit the Kingdom of God?

Is Paradise and the the Kingdom of God the same?

[Part 1]

[Part 2]

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor. Yet I do not know what I shall choose. For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your advancement and joy of faith, so that your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again. (Phi 1:21-26)

If they could continue to communicate with him if he departed to be with Christ then why was it more needful to stay?  If you conclude that "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him" means together with conscious awareness of one another then he did not need to stay to be together with them.  The hand doesn't talk to the eye except in the flesh.  The head communicates to all parts but the parts don't talk directly to each other.  The head is aware of all things but not the parts.

For God didn't appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (1Th 5:9-10)

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain. Yes, we are found false witnesses of God, because we testified about God that he raised up Christ, whom he didn't raise up, if it is so that the dead are not raised. For if the dead aren't raised, neither has Christ been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable. But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ's, at his coming. Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. (1Co 15:13-26)

But we don't want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don't grieve like the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1Th 4:13-18)

knowing this first, that in the last days mockers will come, walking after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation... But don't forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2Pe 3:3-9)

Is there a scriptural account of the living communicating with those who sleep in Christ or asking those who have passed beyond the Earth to intercede for them?

Therefore, we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well pleasing to him. (2Co 5:6-9)

No copout or attack on BEP's part.  Simply stating the truth.  

I agree

I love this.  The man gives truth from God's word that is not agreed with by sojourner.  He then says that given time and spiritual maturity sojourner will grow to see the truth.  And this is a copout because BEP doesn't know what the truth is?  How truly arrogant we must be to assume that because BEP makes an honest statement that he is avoiding his lack of knowing the "truth."  No copout.  Truth.

Brother Love, The Crusader, Ambassador4Christ, Cyber Pope, Warrior For Christ, His Messenger, Etc.,

Answer him then and waste your time if you wish.

I Believe,

The context is in answer to the questioner about whose wife will she be, which is in reference to the future resurrection. However, Christ also indicates that they are alive in Christ today as well. Our spirit lives on until we recieve our glorified bodies.

This is in reference to the first resurrection. the spiritual one that takes place at baptism. As members of His Body within His Church we reign with Christ today in His Kingdom.


At the last day when Christ appears. We then as the spotless bride of Christ will be presented to the Father and inherit the Kingdom prepared for us. Paradise and the Kingdom we inherit is the same.


You will not find any direct command because the references that are in the Bible are from principles already in existance.  You look at the Bible the opposite of the way we do.  You look at it deductively, we look at it inductively.  We have Holy Tradition which brought forth the NT which unlies the text.  Because you have not accepted all of Revelation, only the written, you constantly look for principles which will never be there. Thus many references and texts really have no meaning for you or you put your own understanding on them.

 Why does God command us to pray for one another (Rom. 15:30; 2 Cor. 1:11; Eph. 6:18-19; 1 Thes. 5:25; 1 Tim. 2:1; James 5:14-18) if we can pray to God on our own, for ourselves and we need no one else but Jesus? The REAL QUESTION is not "why intercession of the saints" but  why intercession at all.
Western philosophy has influenced the thinking of modern Christians to think of salvation and relationship to Christ as individualism and external as opposed to community/communion and internal.
Trinitarian Theology: We are created for communion. God is Three persons in one essence. So is man. This is the basis of the Great Commandment.

God IS communion, we are created in His image. Intercession is communion, sharing a common life, humanity and being connected to one another through Christ. Orthodoxy: No one is saved alone. "Where two or three are gathered"; I Tim. 4:5 "You are sanctified by the Word of God and prayer" Acts 1:14 Disciples were in one accord in prayer and supplication. I Cor. 12 baptized into one body, the Church, all members of one another, Vine and branches, share a common source of life/the same life in Christ.  We, as Christians, MUST share in the sufferings and life of other Christians, and will continue to do so after death.

The historical witness shows  that intercession of the saints was not outside of the mind or piety of the early Church, who used the LXX (Septuagint) Greek translation of the Hebrew OT, and its Deuterocanonicals (Apocrypha) for teaching and instruction.

I know you do not use or consider the Apocrypha, however, in The Apocrypha : Tobit gives a valuable insight into popular Jewish spirituality in the century or two before Christ. The writer has the angel Raphael say, "When you and Sarah your daughter-in-law prayed,
I brought remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One... I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints, and who go in and out before the glory of the Holy One."
Maccabbees 15:12 Judas Maccabbees sees a vision of the departed Onias praying for the Jews, and the Prophet Jeremiah also prays for them and appears to him and gives him a golden sword to conquer with. This is why the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus would have made sense to Jesus’ Jewish audience. They believed that the dead can communicate among themselves and with those who are on the earth. This was the belief that the early Christians brought into the Church and saw affirmed in Christ as indicated in Revelation, Hebrews, etc.
That is where Protestants again have trouble finding direction. There are no principles necessarily because this was an extablished practice and the Bible only contains glimpses.
LXX was the "Bible of the NT Church" which contained the Apocrypha. Jude 9, Michael and Satan; 2 Tim. 3:8 Jannes and Jambres. The Apocrypha was used for instruction and doctrine.
The Roman catacombs (circa 2nd century) inscription:
 "Pray for thy parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year and 51 days."
            "Januaria, take thy good refreshment, and make request for us."
            "Atticus: sleep inpeace, secure in thy safety, and pray anxiously for our sins;"
            "Martyrs, holy, good, blessed, help Quiracus."
            "Peter and Paul, help Primitivus, a sinner."
            "Paul and Peter, have us in mind in your prayers, and more than us."
            "Paul and Peter, pray for Victor."

The biggest problem Protestants have is that they continually compare with the Roman Catholic Church. Rome has added and changed the practice and Gospel from the original, thus the reaction to it because of its abuse. Romans added merit, indulgences, and built it into  Purgatory, which the Reformers recognized as incorrect, but their solution was an error as well.
It would do protestants and western Christians in general to put Roman Catholicism behind them. They are still a negative religion or a constant protest. I can understand the people in the time of the dark ages, even middle ages and possibly until the 19th and 20th century. But today there is no reason why anyone cannot know much more about the Original Christians their witness without being clouded by Roman Catholicism.

The crux of the matter, for we who are in Christ are one body in him, and that body organic, and the parts of that body have one nous, that of Christ, and have a high level of interactivity one with another in love and healing and intercession. Salvation is not a "me and God" affair, but a "we in Christ"...  And we pray one for another, and the medium of communication for a Christian is prayer - The overtly verbal is but a small portion of a Christian's communal life.  We live in Spirit and in Truth, not in words and proofs, and we have life in Christ, and that life does not die with physical death, for it is not a physical life, but spiritual...  So that death is no barrier to communication in spirit, and the medium of communication in spirit is prayer, and we can pray to God, and to other Christians, for prayer is of the nous, as well as the common prayer that is the work of the Church in liturgy.
We believe that we worship all together in the heavenly temple whenever we are gathered in the Eucharist.

Within the Body of  Christ, we work together, all helping one another.  God could have opened Saul's eyes without Ananias.  He could have healed the sick without St. Paul's touch.  He could reveal Himself directly to us without sending preachers.  But instead, both in this present life and in the life to come, God gives us the unspeakable honor of allowing us to be co-ministers with Him to one another.  We get the chance to keep on performing acts of love for one another.  To share His ministry is part of sharing His Life, part of being like Him and always acting, speaking, thinking, in union with Him.

God practically never dishes out His grace without going through someone else. Rarely do you see in the Bible God acting apart from going through someone, whether that be Moses, King David, the prophets, the Apostles, and the list could go on and on. He specifically said that we would actually do greater things than He did, and our history of the saints proves that they did indeed do miracles equal to and greater in degree than Christ did while on earth.

My last point. Even if Protestants had a direct command in the Bible they would probably find a way to explain it away so as to fit their respective presupposition. Same as they do with baptism and the Eucharist.

Several of the text you used, I Believe, I don't see a connection or possibly not understanding how you are attempting to use them for your understanding of the Invocation of the Saints.


           

On it's face this account is absolutely absurd.  

God has angels to bring to remembrance the prayers of the saints even though:
  A) He already knows all things
  B) The Holy Spirit helps our weakness in prayer by interceding for us
  C) Your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him

This is the boldness which we have toward him, that, if we ask anything according to his will, he listens to us. And if we know that he listens to us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of him. (1Jo 5:14-15)

Our prayers are not to inform God about our needs but to align our spirit and will with His.

In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses, for we don't know how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can't be uttered. He who searches the hearts knows what is on the Spirit's mind, because he makes intercession for the saints according to God. We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. (Rom 8:26-28)

because if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. Beloved, if our hearts don't condemn us, we have boldness toward God; and whatever we ask, we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight. This is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he commanded. He who keeps his commandments remains in him, and he in him. By this we know that he remains in us, by the Spirit which he gave us. (1Jo 3:20-24)

But you, when you pray, enter into your inner chamber, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. In praying, don't use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking. Therefore don't be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him. Pray like this: 'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.' (Mat 6:6-13)

This is the reason the tradition is not given much credence by those who believe that all Scripture is God-breathed and that man's traditions in or out of the "Church" are suspect.

Heidi,

No one doubts, but what kind.  Obviously you don't agree with the Apostles, you disparage them in favor of yourself.  You also have not yet proven that yours in nothing but your very own interpretation. Show it as the Gospel once given for all of humanity from the very beginning.

That is based on your misunderstanding of what is Church and what is the Body of Christ.  I believe in Christ first and foremost. He is the Church, so I also believe in the Church.  The history of that NT portion of Christ's interaction with His Church is called Scripture.
Your statement about changes will need to be proven. Again, as I suspect you are mouthing more of your hatred to the Roman Catholics be it person(s) or organization. Before you make sweeping statements you need to be sure of your facts.

Again, you know nothing of what you speak. Prove your allegations.
The problem you have is that you need to separate Jesus's words from Church history, doctrine because they are one and the same.
Or is it really a question that you don't really believe in THE historical, Biblical Jesus? Just a

I Believe,

You are again taking a few versus and establishing a whole doctrine on it which does not take into consideration all the other versus to the contrary. In fact the statement you made about the Father knowing before we ask, then later you quote a verse, that we must ask. And that is the point.

Same as with salvation in general. You are of the belief that God actually does everything for you and you don't need to do anything. He is up there, you are down here and He is dispensing salvation.  He actually saved you, when in effect you need to acknowledge Him and seek repentance. That is of your past but really a change of direction.
By the texts you quoted it sums up what I had stated in my previous post. Protestants have this individualism about Christianity. You are saying that you don't really need to pray for your brothers, not even for the unsaved.  Everything you are attempting to point out makes it anti-christian. It is never 'I' or 'me'. It is always 'other'.  It is all communion of community. All IN Christ, not individually, but in unity. This is the unity that Christ prayed for in His prayer in John 17. This is an organic, ontological unity He is speaking about.
Protestants use the language but they practice and believe externally, individually.
That brings me to your statement:
That is correct but just what do you think His will is?
Since you use the Bible as your basis, you should not have any trouble with this one. It is plainly written all over it. Including the 'making oneself pure' and that we were created for the very works that you constantly disparage. That is precisely the salvation of man as it was the salvation of Adam. You just don't see the similarity or requirement of our created purpose. It is all about communion of community.

The Bible is a cohesive whole. It is a seamless garment. Protestants pick and choose, take some verses, disregard others that speak the opposite or possibly they don't understand or have disjointed doctrine, such as OSAS, and penal-substitutionary attonement, that sin is God's problem not man's. God changes to accommodate man rather than man to accommodate God.
or to say it biblically, align man's will with God's.

That is the problem that you have. We don't have that problem when we use all of Revelation and the witness of both the saints and the Holy Spirit through history.

On the other hand you have a monumental problem in showing that anything that you believe based on the Bible is anything but man-made.  The Bible is an inanimate object, that's why it is said to be objective. However, those who read are definitely not objective. If they were, you would have everyone arriving at the same opinion and belief. Then of course, you need to interpret because you don't have the rest or the basis of the written. Then of, course you are in violation of some pretty clear scripture. So you want it both ways. Your personal doctrine and disregard or rationalize a direct command to the contrary away.

You have to realize that all heresy, all false teaching, all anti-christian teachings are based on something in the Bible. How do you guard either yourself from false teaching or falling for false teaching. From what I gather it is mostly reason and logic.  Can you find anything in scripture that says that this is the basis of understanding? I'm not speaking here of using any but as the ground of interpretation.
As well as limiting yourself to only what is written.

You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ  (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:1-10)

But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Tit 3:4-7)

The good works were prepared by God that we would walk in them after we have been saved by grace, through faith, according to his mercy.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. (Rom 8:16)

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints who are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ... having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself...making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him to an administration of the fullness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, in him; in whom also we were assigned an inheritance, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will; to the end that we should be to the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation,--in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:1-14)

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd... I told you, and you don't believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, these testify about me. But you don't believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (Joh 10:16-28)

But I make known to you, brothers, concerning the Good News which was preached by me, that it is not according to man. For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Jesus Christ...But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I didn't immediately confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia. Then I returned to Damascus. (Gal 1:11-17)

But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned...But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do? (Gal 2:11-14)

We are not called to follow blindly after the traditions of men. We are EACH called to test all things.
How? Through the scripture and the Spirit.

Don't quench the Spirit. Don't despise prophesies. Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. (1Th 5:19-21)

Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-17)

Who are you that judges another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand. One indeed esteems a day above another day; and another esteems every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind. (Rom 14:4-5)

So then each one of us will give account of himself to God. Therefore let's not judge one another any more, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block in his brother's way, or an occasion for falling. (Rom 14:12-13)

Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For there are certain men who crept in secretly, even those who were long ago written about for this condemnation: ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jud 1:3-4)

"once for all delivered to the saints" - Not the tradtitions that man added 100, 300, 1000 years later

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is. Everyone who has this hope set on him purifies himself, even as he is pure. (1Jo 3:2-3)

Are we supposed to grow more like Christ while we remain? Yes!  But we do not earn or acquire any more justification before God by our works of righteousness.

But their minds were hardened, for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains, because in Christ it passes away. But to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit. (2Co 3:14-18)

Will we ever be fully transformed while we remain? No!

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known. (1Co 13:9-12)

I Believe,

You quoted a lot of texts that do not make your point, in fact, they actually speak against it. It is all in the presuppositions and understanding on which your interpretation stands.

I am not entirely clear on what you are saying that you believe.  I think it might also be helpful for you to clearly state which statements that I have made that are contradictory.

Thank You.

I Believe,


Very simply, that Christ died for me and saved me as a human being along with His creation. He justified, made right all men with God. It is the joining of the Body and Soul, though finalized in the eschoton is lived out in our life on earth. By Grace, while we ALL were sinners Christ died for ALL of us. What for? So that mankind could again be in communion with God. That man could once again attain the object for which he was created, to bring as a sacrifice himself and the created order back to God. Going from Image to Likeness. From simply man to the Divine Nature. II Pet 1:4

That was the correction of the nature of man. We also have an essence that makes us all the same as humans. It is called personhood. It is the opposite of individual.  The primary characteristics are that we are free, distinctive, and communal.  
We in our sinful nature here on earth cannot achieve the goal without a lot of help from God, through the work of the Holy Spirit and the salvfic aids he has provided for us humans living in a real fallen world. That is the work we do as believers IN Christ once we acknowledge him as Lord of our lives and are joined, literally, with Him, to accomplish the task set before us.
It is the reason God sent Christ to save mankind, so God could save His created order through the work of man.
That work is man's salvation (individually) But, we are saved as a community, as a Church, the Body of Christ. There is a organic unity that is at work in the world. Not just individuals acting on their own.  Faith is the doorway, the entrance into the Kingdom. Work is not the result of faith, it is Faith in action. The prize is not rewards, but Christ Himself.
Again, that separates Christ's redeeming work, the objective part, from the subjective part which is man's acceptance of that free Gift and avails himself of the obligation of his created tasks.
It would be presumptous to assume God's judgement simply on the single mental event of faith at some point in a person's life. It is also presumptous to think that God would then do for you what He created you to do in the first place.

Contradiction.
I thought I was clear on this, but possibly an assumption on my part and possibly a misunderstanding of the inconsistancy that Protestants have with what they say, and the theology of what they say.

However, once again  as you state, man is saved by faith, a single momentary event in ones life and you are finitely saved unto eternity and cannot lose ones salvation. You then say that the works of righteousness that the Bible talks about is what results from this faith. That we do it for some rewards but it does not save us. It is the fruit of that faith. just evidence of faith, but not salvation itself.

Then you made the statement in the quote above. Total contradiction. Being transformed is the salvation of man. It is the result of the works of faith. It is the prize, the reward, we call it Theosis. If works do nothing, surely they are not transforming you. But it is a correct assessment of our life here on earth. Not perfection here but in eternity. Even our entrance into heaven, we will be purified to remove any unrighteousness still within us. That is the text I Cor 3:15. It would be great if we all could build with gold, but most of us will have an assortment of straw, sand and sticks.

I got news for you, sojourner, EVERYONE who goes to church thinks he's a Christian! But this contradicts Jesus's words that many who call upon His name will not enter the kingdom of heaven. It also contradicts his words that there will be many false teachers. Jesus said; "My sheep listen to my voice. No one can snatch them out of my hand." Yet there are many people who call themselves Christians who not only believe Jesus is lying when he said that, but have also "deconverted".  "Professed" Christians are precisely the group to whom Jesus is referring when He talks about a wolf dressed in SHEEP'S clothing. That means an unbeliever who masquerades as a SHEEP (His sheep are His true believers.)

Heidi,

If you believe the words you wrote, the very words have a false teaching within them. False based on the teaching of the Apostles, which is Jesus's words, and not your self-proclaimed gospel.
So who is the wolf?

Now, if you are claiming that I am, you will need to prove that. Your simple assertion based on your self-interpretation does not make it so.

You have yet to show that the Apostles actually taught what you say they do.
Otherwise it is simply idle words.

The word transformed in the context that I used it is to be conformed to the image of Christ,  a process that is not completed while we are still in our corrupt flesh.  How do we know this?  Because we all still sin.

According to his mercy, he saved us applying to us the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Good works in obedience to God through the leading of His Spirit and Word are good and profitable to men that they may not be unfruitful.


"I count all things to be loss...that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith"

"not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us"

"those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men;...that they may not be unfruitful"

"Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, if it is so that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus...to the extent that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule...For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will change the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of his glory"


But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ  (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:4-10)

For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh; ...Yes most certainly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death; if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, if it is so that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I don't regard myself as yet having taken hold, but one thing I do. Forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, think this way. If in anything you think otherwise, God will also reveal that to you. Nevertheless, to the extent that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule. Let us be of the same mind. Brothers, be imitators together of me, and note those who walk this way, even as you have us for an example...For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will change the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working by which he is able even to subject all things to himself. (Phi 3:3-21)

For we were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; ...Let our people also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they may not be unfruitful...(Tit 3:3-15)

We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30)

Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God. (Rom 12:1-2)

Perfect harmony.  We are declared righteous by faith in Christ and strive to become like Christ through the leading of the Holy Spirit.  At some future time whether you believe it is at our physical death or when Christ returns "when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is." The Lord Jesus Christ; who will change the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of his glory.

Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1Co 15:51-53)

I Believe,


Either word will do, it is the process that is critical. That the process is in fact in progress is the reason for the salvation (redemption) of mankind. True, it will neither be completed, nor perfected in this life because of our sinning.

Because we still sin, by default negates your entire understanding of man's salvation through faith. It cannot be a one-time, not guilty, perfection, no sin in this life. That is the massive error of the judicial or forensic theory. It is not realty. It also negates the whole work of the Holy Spirit IN man during his life on earth as a believer.
I'm glad you did not use the word 'impute' because that is far from reality as well. We are righteous in so far as we don't sin. In so far as we don't sin we have righteousness accounted to us as our own which does come from Christ. That definition of 'faith' has been since Abraham where we have the first explanation of faith being accounted of his good works. Yes, definitely, fruitful because it is what saves man. No works, no salvation, faith is dead.
What is just explained can be summed up in the same text you quoted:

This has nothing to do 'per se' with the saving of the believer. This is in reference to all of mankind. This needed to be accomplished by Christ so that mankind could accept that free Gift by Grace. Once accepted, we become believers and we then seek to do His will in conforming to His Image in which we were created.

Then this text again sums up the struggle of the believer in this life in attempting to conform all the while still in possession of his sinful nature.

This text has both elements of salvation within it.

The first part, by Grace we were saved.....made alive together with Christ... is in reference only to the objective work of Christ on the Cross whereby ALL men were saved. All men have been made alive again. Meaning, body and soul have been reunited. Christ overturned death which was instituted by Adam. Then by His death and resurrection (baptism) we are raised with Him to sit with Him and reign with Him in His Kingdom.
Then beginning with for by grace again, Paul is summing up the whole of salvation and again lists both elements. The Objective work of Christ (redemption) and then the works we were created to do once we accept that free Gift. Walking in them is work and it is salvation of the believer. If no walking, no believer, no salvation.
Your text of (Phi 3:3-21) is a summary of man's redemption and salvation.
Titus 3:3-15 is along the same vein.
Here is another way to look at the whole picture.
Christ's work of redemption is related to our nature. (all men - mankind)
The work of the Holy Spirit begins at Pentacost and has to do with the deifying or conforming work - our personhood. Neither can do without the other but it takes both for the salvation of man.

Actually two things are not what the Apostles taught. We, that is mankind has been made right. Justified. We appropriate that righteousness by faith and increase that righteousness as we grow in faith, as we strengthen faith, as we begin to conform to His Image, in His Likeness. as we become partakers of His divine nature.
If we were in fact declared righteous, we would be perfect. We would have already attained the Image. That is only possible in the eschoton.

There are a lot more implications in this meaning of which protestants do not recognize.

So when is a person saved, sojourner? How many Sundays does one have to attend church to be saved? How many good acts? What's the magic number? Who said? Where in the bible does it say how many acts we have to do to be saved. In fact it says the EXACT opposite.   James, 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point if guilty of breaking all of it." So when are we saved? Most of Pauls' words are about being saved through faith alone. Just look at the concordance under "faith" and look up all the NT chapters on it. There are MANY which talks about being saved through faith alone. You are disagreeing with all of those. Jesus didn't die for the adulterers and not the murderers or for every sin we commit through Jul 17th. He died for EVERY sin once and for all. IT IS FINISHED. Do you not understand what that means? Your beliefs agree with the Jews.

Heidi,

Because you don't understand the Biblical meaning of salvation you are confusing the very issue that I have attempted to explain to I Believe. What you say here based on what you have stated before, this would be universalism. This definitely puts you out of the realm of Christianity, Orthodoxy for sure, but even protestantism.

My Bible never says 'faith alone'. You must be Lutheran. He rewrote his Bible to use the word alone. It appears only once and in the negative. As far as looking it up, I don't use the same man-made concordances of the men who established their man-made religion. What would you expect them to say?
Actually, the correct way to say it is: saved by Grace, through faith.

I have no idea based on your interpretation. Maybe you should attempt to explain your words which I perceive as a misrepresentation even of protestantism, whatever that actually means today.
They do??

Do you not believe that Jesus said; "It is finished"? If not, then what did he say? Please tell the world. I do not have a Lutheran bible nor do I subscribe to "Lutheranism." If you believe that we are saved by works, then WHAT IN THE HECK WAS THE POINT OF JESUS'S DEATH? According to your theory, sojourner, it was a COMPLETE waste of time. He did NOTHING! It's all up to you! This issue is the point of the WHOLE bible, both OT and NT. The OT was written to show us WHY WE CANNOT OBEY THE LAW. The NT was written to show us God's remedy for our inability to obey the law. Romans, 2:17, "For in the gospel, a righteousness FROM GOD is revealed, a rghteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: the righteous will live by faith." Romans, 3:11, "There is no one righteous, not even one." You obviously disagree with that also because you say that we can become righteous which would then make some people better than others, which is against Jesus's teachings not to judge, and also pride and arrogance which is not a fruit of the spirit. It is also against Paul's words not to boast, against Jesus's message of humility and virtually contradicts most of the NT!

Again, your beliefs TOTALLY correspond to Jewish teachings only you're wearing sheep's clothing, sojourner. I can see why you doubt your salvatation. You will understand it once you're saved. Until then, you will have many doubts. By the way, doubt is NOT a fruit of the spirit and you are riddled with doubt. Once you're saved, you will experience the fruits of the spirit which are joy, hope, love,  peace, and thanksgiving.  ANY belief that leads us to ANY sin, including the sin of pride is from the devil. Your beliefs glorify man instead of Christ which shows they are not from the Holy Spirit, but from the sin of pride.

Heidi,

Well, what can one say. You obviously have not read the preceding posts in which I have responded to I Believe,  But to say the least you are very confused. At least as to what the Gospel has been for 2000 years from the beginning. You may be familiar with the current modern vernacular along with some of your own personal interpretation but don't compare that to the original. You are worlds apart.

I do believe in what Jesus said, but not your interpretation of it. It does not align with the original, therefore invalid.

Just to keep it simple. What Christ did was to redeem the world. That includes the physical world along with man. It deals with mans nature which was separated at the fall by Adam. That is why Christ is referred to as the second Adam. He overcame DEATH. The separation of body and soul. He also overcame physical death, but both are actually not completed until the eschoton.

Now, the important thing for you to understand, Christ's work was for all men. It actually is involuntary. Man has absolutely no say in it whatsoever. That is why all the texts very explicitly states that neither works of the law or any effort of man can do what Christ accomplished. It is by Grace only. At this point it has absolutely nothing to do with faith as yet.

This means that all of mankinds sins have been covered,  all of mankind has been justified, made right with God. We are now at the same point Adam was before the fall, with the exception we still have our sinful, corrupted natures.

Next, comes the important part. How does one separate himself from ALL MEN. We do it by believing that God did in fact redeem me and we can lay hold of that free gift by simply accepting it by faith. However, faith is not a one-time mental assertion. Faith means living, abiding, working, the great commandment. We as mankind, that is believers, are to do what Adam was expected to do as being created in God's image. Now that becomes the salvation of the believer. Or, one can say, it is the salvation of man.  If one does not appropriate the work of Christ, you are lost and if you are a slackered, or depart from the faith, you will not be saved. Therefore man is not saved until death. God makes that judgement, not you.

Now, speaking of the NT, probably 95 percent is dealing with this living, walking,. abiding in the Truth.  This is not a movement of gratitude or working for some level of rewards. The reward is Christ Himselt. Perfection in the Divine Nature.

Heidi, that is all in Scripture. It has been delineated, outlined, lived, believed and practiced for 2000 years. By the fact it is still the same after 2000 years authentics precisely where the Holy Spirit actualy resides and works.

Now, I ask, who is wearing sheeps clothing, who is arrogant, in fact somewhat blasphemous,
You are right though, I won't understand it fully until I am saved, which is in the hereafter.

I didn't know you could sin. You stated before that you were completely righteous, made so by your simple belief in God. You don't even need your sins forgiven because it is automatic because Christ died for all sins. Do you understand now, why that would be universalism?

My sincere suggestion is to put the man-made religions and your own feeble attempt to interpret and create your very own personal religion behind you. Learn what salvation has always meant verified by the saints, martyrs, and the Holy Spirit.

You still have not shown that your interpretation is what the Apostles actually received from the Holy Spirit, taught to the first century Christians. If you are working on it, keep at it. It will take you a lifetime  but you will find the Truth.

Sojourner,

You are teaching a false (little 'g") gospel that does not exist. Just plainly, your beliefs are inside-out, backward, and upside-down wrong and completely FALSE! It was false 2,000 years ago and it's false now. There was a HUGE reason for the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the CROSS in our stead. There isn't a human being alive that has a single thing that is worthy to add to the PERFECT WORK OF JESUS CHRIST THAT WAS FINISHED AT THE CROSS! For a man to think that he or she had anything worthy of even mentioning with the sacrifice would be self-righteous stupidity and near blasphemy.

It's really very simple. You will either yield to the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ, or you won't. If you are working for your salvation or trying to obey the law for your salvation, you lose and fail. If men were capable of being worthy, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the cross was in vain. However, the righteousness of men is as filty rags and Jesus is the only way. It is HIS WAY, with HIS BLOOD, with HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and our faith in HIM ALONE - PERIOD - END OF STORY!

However, in your case, you may wish to go back under a Levitical Priest, do burnt offerings, and forget about the cross with what you are teaching. You are most welcome to do that, but you are not welcome  to attempt to convince others here to take the ride into self-righteous darkness with you. You will need a temple, and in your case, a large supply of livestock. It would be better for you to find out about Jesus, but you appear to be determined to take the self-righteous route. You might have enough righteousness to get into a K-Mart, but not heaven. So, you might have a K-Mart gospel, but it is rejected here. Saying the same thing ten more times won't lend any more validity to something that doesn't exist.

Blackeyedpeas,

That you haven't proven as yet. You will find what I am explaining has been the Gospel for 2000 years. It has not changed one iota. If you want to claim it as false per your own interpretation that is perfectly acceptable. I doubt very much that you could even prove your theory back as far as the 16th century.

Now, that is Gospel Truth. That is precisely what I have been explaining to I Believe. But it seems that most protestants have no clue as what that precisely is. You earlier, and Heidi in the most previous post, put man's response under the finished work of Christ. You keep saying saved by works and no one, for sure me, as ever spoken of being saved by works. You may have the same problem as Heidi in thinking I am explaining the Roman Catholic view of salvation. There can be nothing further  from the Truth. In fact, as I pointed out to I Believe, most, if not all protestant views have as their root the Roman Catholic doctrine  known as the Forensic theory or the pen-sub theory.

This quote shows your obvious confusion or misunderstanding of the original Gospel as well. Man has absolutely nothing at all to do with Christ's work of the Cross. However, Christ's work on the Cross was necessary in order for man to have a relationship with God which was broken by Adam. We were eternally separated from God. Thus God redeemed His Creation, He was Incarnated, became fully man so that man could become partakers of the Divine Nature. Now, this so happens to have been the reason we were created. It was precisely what Adam was supposed to be doing WITH    God. He chose instead to do it alone because Satan said to Eve that she could become like God.  This was the whole purpose of man, but it was SUPPOSED to be WITH God.  

Now, here comes modern man, full of pride, arrogant, wants to be individual, like Eve, wants to do it his way, not the way the Bible actually spells it out.
The rest of your post has nothing to do with what I am saying. It is just another diatribe with no meaning and total misunderstanding.

Obviously then, one could well assume that you sincerely believe that the Gospel came about the mid 16th century and a more and better version sometime within the last couple of years. If that be the case why base what you believe on a Bible that resulted from the very Tradition that you are despising and the fact that the Holy Spirit failed and lied to us all. Possibly you believe something similar to the Mormons. You just have not gotten around to writing a new book as yet.

Now, the fact you cannot prove your position leaves you sort of hanging high, as they say. If you really think that what you state is the Gospel, you should have no trouble showing its validity.
But as yet you have not shown it, nor that what I am explaining  actually does not exist.

If you cannot, your view is just what it seems, man-made. Self revelation based on personal interpretation of the Bible which was yanked out of its historical context.

Sojourner,

Your quote above is just as ridiculous and false as everything else you are spouting. So, no man had a relationship with God between Adam and the cross???? Your false teaching nullifies the New Testament, and now you nullify the Old Testament. Your statement would clearly state there are no Old Testament Saints spending eternity in Heaven. Well, you would also rule out the Apostles. It is just as well with what you are teaching.

You didn't even get close to the meaning of the cross, and you don't have a clue about the Gospel of God's Grace that most of the New Testament is devoted to. Here's a little hint for you if you ever decide to search for the truth:  the Gospel of God's Grace is THE TRUTH ABOUT THE CROSS, WHY JESUS CHRIST WAS CRUCIFIED ON THE CROSS IN OUR STEAD, WHO JESUS CHRIST WAS BEFORE AND AFTER THE CROSS, AND WHAT JESUS CHRIST CAN AND DOES MEAN TO MANKIND. "CAN", because many men reject the preaching of the cross and the Living Saviour who PAID IT ALL.
 

AMEN, Bep!!! I believe that Sojourner has strayed so far away from Jesus's words and into his own mind that he feels like a God himself. That is born out by his phrase that man separates himself from other men by his belief in Christ. His teachings are the absolute opposite of Jesus's teachings. Only when he receives the Holy spirit will he be led into the truth. Until then, conversing with him will be a waste of time.

*Goes about collecting pearls...*

Oklahoma Howdy to Heidi,

I'm almost convinced that you are correct about it being a waste of time trying to teach the Gospel of God's Grace to Sojourner. Many have already tried.

Small children can and do accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour. Our Lord and Saviour would have us all come to HIM with hearts like a child. The Gospel of the Grace of God can be understood and accepted by a child. One does not need any big words or degrees to explain the Gospel of the Grace of God. If a child can't understand it, you didn't give them the ONE GOSPEL, THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. Obviously, the ONE and only GOSPEL is all about who Jesus Christ was, what Jesus Christ did for us,  who our Living Saviour is today and forever, and what we need to do to ask Jesus Christ into our hearts as our Lord and Saviour. All of the above can be put in very simple terms that children can understand.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Enough pearls in that coffee cup and you will over flow... ;D

Blackeyedpeas,

You have a lot of broad blank strokes to your brush. A lot of diatribe which had absolutely nothing worth while  and not related to what I had stated.
 
You have had two posts to put forth some semblence of an argument to show that what you teach is from the original teaching, rather than from the understanding of some modern teacher, with a little of personal blackeyedpeaism thrown in. Until you can prove it, it still stands as a man-made doctrine with no validity in relation to the True Gospel.
As I stated before that is acceptable if you choose to so believe. But claim it as original, lets see your documentation. You have 2000 years of record to help you.

Just another unproven assertion. Its Blackeyedpeasim until shown to be different.

You are correct that a child can understand the Gospel. However, I didn't think I needed to bring it down to that level for you. A child matures and is taught the meat of faith. After all. one lives what they believe including how they understand doctrine. However, you seem to have a very difficult time as an adult. I would think as one you could get beyond the childish understanding and be able to show that what you believe has always been believed by all since the beginning.

However, I tend to agree with Allinall. Matt 7:6; I Cor 2:14.

So few will be saved...

No Wonder

It sounds like a job for:

Drum Roll - Trumpets:

THE CLONE SIX-PACK


You wanted it - you got it.

God didn't have to do it, but He does love us.
He is righteous.
Knows what he created,
and this Gospel of Grace provides for those who don't get it

But once we do get it
                           we got it foreverlasting.

Ephesians 4:30  Spiritual Salvation
and grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, by which you were selaed for a day of Redemption.
First Abraham was saved by faith, then by his life walk(soul salvation) he was also justified

James 2:21,22
Was not Abraham our Father justified by works, when he brought up Isaac his son to the altar?
Thou seest that the faith co-operated with his works: and that the faith was made complete by the works

James 1:32
Therefore, discard all impurity and overflowing of malice, embrace with meekness that implanted word which is able to save your souls.

All of our bodies will go to the grave,( unless we are taken up to the heavens first at the rapture),because of sin.  So there is a redemption or salvation of the body too because we have a body with sin.

Romans 5:12
For this reason  as through one man sin entered into the world, ( in whom all sinned ), and though sin, death: so also, deathe passed upon all men.T

here are no exceptions, God says if you believe in His son, you shall not perish, you shall be saved, in so many verses in His Word.  This is the initial act of salvation, the rest just follow and every person who is saved will not lose it, therefore, there are consequences, but God wouldn't say one thing then provide for a loophole in case the person doesn't make the right decisions.  That person will be worked with here on earth, and then answer for everythng at the judgement seat of Christ.  

I just can't believe al those millions of people who thought they were saved are not because they did wrong "works" and that God's grace is not sufficient: or simply put Jesus's work on the cross was not sufficient.

There are soooo many people that have been saved.
iconHis

Good!  Cause it was Heidi and BEP's pearls I was collecting...

Jesus said that few will be saved. I believe Him because I believe he knows better than we do. Others don't have to believe Him.

Okay let's get this over with. 1st FAith ALONE is a Human invention. Luther invent it and added it to his German translation of the Bible, hence sola fide. I don't remember the verse of hand i think he added it to romans. If any one knows pls posted it 2nd Salvation is not a personal or individual matter. Thus Jesus cannot be my or your personal saviour. He died for all of mankind, whether we accept this gift or not is an individuals choice. Salvation is communal. OUR FATHER who art in heaeven...ect NOT MY FATHER....  Love, Hope and FAith out these Love is the Greatest. So faith is never alone. When one has faith one has blessings and graces, again faith is not alone.  Works is the products of Love, faith and hope. We do wokrs to show our Love , our faith and our Hope. Salvation is not a matter of faith alone.

Ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!  :D  :D  :D  :D

So, you've never read the Bible, huh?

Mark, 11:24, "Therefore i tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have it and it will be yours." That includes salvation. That whole passage is faith alone!!!

So what about Mark 11:23, have you told any hills to get up and throw themselves into the sea? He says that if you have faith and believe with out a doubt that it will happen, give it a try and let us know the results.
   Sorry but nowhere in there does it say faith alone. On the contrary, there are many verses that say otherwise.
Jam 2:24, Jam 2:26, Gal 5:6, 1 Cor 13:2, Jn 14:15, Mt 19:16-17
  Catholics follow the whole thing, faith and works, 'both/and,' not 'either/or.'
 The Catholic church does not teach that just works are meritorious for salvation, despite what you keep claiming.
Faith is the beginning, but it is not the complete fulfillment of the will of God.  

Jesus said IF you have faith that the mountain would throw themselves into the sea and believe that will happen, then that will happen. I do NOT have faith the the mountains will throw themselves into the sea. But I DO have faith in my salvation. Therefore I will have it. You, Michael, and the catholics have made it clear that you do NOT have faith that you are saved. Therefore, according to Christ, you will not be.

Correction Heidi, i believe that i'm saved(Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5,8
2 Tim 1:9, Tit 3:5)past  event. I also believe that i am being saved(Phil 2:12, 1 Pet 1:9)present process. I also believe that i will be saved if i endure to the end(Mt 10:22, Mt 24:13,
Mk 8:35, Acts 15:11, Rom 5:9-10, Rom 13:11, 1 Cor 3:15,
1 Cor 5:5, Heb 9:28) future event.
  And all of this would be impossible w/o the free gift of Gods grace, but, the key to all of this is that we must endure to the end, as it clearly shows in scripture. If two years from now you denounce Christianity and do not believe in God nor His Son, Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, than i'm sorry, but you've forfited your salvation.

Let me finish your sentence for you (I know... interrupting, bad manners, etc.)  ;D

"Then you never had His Spirit living in you to begin with."

"Once saved always saved" is a unique perspective that was received through the Trinity.  If you have the Father and Son and Holy Spirit - I mean TRULY have them - then God will never abandon you, you will NEVER denounce them!

You could only denounce Them if you aren't written in the Book of Life and never had Them to begin with.

Jesus died for ALL sin - past, present, future - for those who believe (really, really believe) that He is the Way.

Amen, Judge not!!! The Book of life CANNOT be changed because it's already been written! That is the crux of my whole point! "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" and "no one can snatch them out of my hand"! Rich's salvation depends on IF.....NOT on the BELIEF that "NO ONE can snatch them out of my hand."

Heidi,

Sorry, Heidi, that is a contradiction to your stated belief.
Prayer is a work. Prayer is one of those things Christ commands. It is not if you pray, but when you pray. It is faith however, but not alone.


JudgeNOt,
Now, the first part of the statement is true because God is saying it respective of Himself. However, He stated it to ALL men, heathen and believers. He saved ALL. That is what is known as the Work of Christ on the Cross. It is the part of which you have no understanding because you never get to the personal acceptance through faith.
Unless you believe that you are perfectly righteouss, and have attained that perfection and cannot sin, then you could say sincerely, that you would not forsake or abandon God. However, if you are truly human living in this world, we are still all sinners and we can clearly reject Christ at any time.
It's known as free will, one of the elements of our nature which was created in God's image.

Rich has it correct until he mentions the words meritorious Nothing is merited. If it was we would not need Grace. It is all Grace, nothing but Grace. And the works we do is out of obedience and love to God and man.

Judgenot,
The way you have written this and sort of implied it, it is a contradiction.
Christ died for all sins period. Believers and unbelievers. However, unless repentance is involved and we do that by appropriating Christ's work throught faith asking for repentance, then Christ did not die for your sins pesonally.

Judgenot,

The Bible does not teach this anywhere. So it must be your personal teaching, Right?

Sorry, i meant the word meritorious as in valuable, not as in deserving reward.

Who do you think leads us to pray, Sojourner? Or do you think it comes from your own intelligence, good heart, wonderful loving nature? If that's the case then you don't need christ's forgiveness at all!

Your focus on prayer allowed you to miss the point of Jesus's phrase which is that if you believe that you have received whatever you ask for, it will be yours.

Rich,
Ok,

Heidi, you don't get to determine what Jesus' point was in that phrase.  

The point is that both prayer and believing are required unless of course you want to ignore part of what He said or twist His words.

Actually Jesus never said that, you are just twisting His words again to suit your doctrine.

here is what was really said.

Luk 13:23  Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

See they ask Jesus if only a few will be saved.  he never says yes He never says no.  he does say that many will try to enter in by the broad way - but that doesn't mean that there won't also be many who enter in by the straight way.  he said many not almost all, not most, not even a majority, just many - which leaves room for many to enter the straight way.

You really need to read your scripture more carefully Heidi.

It was Romans 3:28 that Luther changed to include the word alone.

The following URL takes you to a site concerning his German translation.

http://demo.lutherproductions.com/historytutor/basic/reformation/story/luther_german.htm


Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith ALONE without the deeds of the law.

The bold caps are Luthers addition to the word of God that started all this.  Until that time the idea of faith alone accepting the gift of salvation was unknown in Christianity.

Faith alone never appears anywhere in the Bible except in the following verse.

Jam 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

The only other place that comes closes to it is a reference to faith only, but that verse in the Bible also teaches the opposite of salvation by faith alone.

Jam 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

There are verses that say it is by grace through faith not of works and the like.  But they are speaking not of faith alone, but faith without works of the letter of the law trying to merit salvation - these verses do not speak against works of love fulfilling the spirit of the law which are part of a living faith and serve to perfect and enliven that faith.

You just don't know your scripture very well do you Heidi.  of course the Book of Life can be changed.

Rev 3:5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Here Christ promises that IF we overcome He will not blot our names out of the Book of Life.  That isn'tmuch of a promise is it if it is not even possible to be blotted out.  Do you really want to accuse Jesus of such empty promises?

Faith alone definitely does appear in the bible, especially in Jesus's words; "Therefore, i tell you, ask for whatever you want in prayer and believe that you have receieved it, and it will be yours"...unless of course, you take out "and believe that you have received it" because it contradicts your interpretation, Michael. Very telling indeed. By the way, prayer is obvious to me in that sentence. It may not be obvious to the catholics because they aren't sure to whom Jesus wants us to pray. It could be to Mary, or Peter, maybe Paul.  They simply have to guess.

Heidi,

Don't get down about Jesus.  I don't know if you saw my post the other day, "Robbers of Hope and Theives of Joy"  It's like, Lord Have Mercy!  Are you sure you're in control?  Why is it that some folks are so adament about their religion?  

You just have to remember, the Pharasees--they didn't change.  They crucified Christ.

You have to remember, the Deciples Took FOREVER to catch on to Jesus' mission.

personally, I ventured off into a conversation with someone that didn't have not one iota of belive in Christ, and suddenly by comparison, Catholics are wonderful!!   ;D  It's true.  At least you can agree on some things.  In addition, a few years back, I so much longed to join the catholic church so I could be come a nun.    ;D  I'm weird.  You have no idea.  The nun life sounds so exciting to me.  But I'm too big a sinner and the Catholics wont have me.   :'(  

I always watch Mother Angelica on the Catholic Channel, and I love her.  Then I have to wonder why so many folks say it's wrong to teach in church.  She's pretty smart.  I just don't pray to the Virgin Mary but instead, I go ahead and ask Jesus to ask her to pray to Him for me.   ;)

I can't seem to quit smoking.  I still use curse words when I'm not careful.  I don't like the Pope.  But besides those things, I don't have that big a problem with Catholics.

One thing I do know, how do you think the Christians of old that couldn't read and write got along in life?  How do you think the peasants that couldn't make it to church in years got along?  You don't have to know everything to have Christ in your heart.

I know God forgives us for not knowing everything and I know God forgives us for knowing too much--or believing stuff that isn't true.  As long as we understand that we are sinners and by Christ's atonement on the cross we are saved.  And there's people in the world so happy about Christ's work on the croos that if you tell them they have to do all this extra stuff, then they'll do it.  I think it's sad that those folks have to do all this extra stuff, and I sure would like to tell them its not necesary, but I don't think it will come between the saved and Christ on judgement day.  Sometimes I think if I were a bit more humble, I would go along with a whole lot of stuff that I refuse to go along with.

I completely disagree with Michael on at least a hundred things, but I think he's a sweetie.  :)  Because if you noticed, no matter how provoked he gets, he never starts taking evil stabs at people. Have you noticed?  Well, maybe with you, but he gets tired of arguements, but I noticed the stuff he says is for the most part, not attacking you, but your words.  He wants you to just agree so he can be happy.   ;D  We know that wont happen.  But You want him to agree with YOU.  We know that wont happen.  So what then?

Peace

I agree that the Pharisees didn't change because they were not called by God. In addition, they were prophesied to crucify Jesus. I, however, do not know who is called by God and who is not. Therefore, If I am led to witness, i will do it in the hopes that if someone is being called by God, that something i say might help. There are many times when I quit because Jesus's words are being trampled on. Then there are other times when i am led to respond.

Michael has accused me of lying many times. If you look back at his posts, Candice, you will see a jab at me in everyone of his responses to me. I feel that when any church, person, or group of people blatanly ignores Jesus's words, sets themselves up as infallible, breaks the first 2 commandments by worshiping people, calls attention to themselves as OUR HOLY FATHER, hoards millions of dollars in gold, etc. ALL IN THE NAME of Jesus is sacreligious. I much prefer to deal with atheists who are at least honest about their unbelief. Jesus was the angriest at the Pharisees because of their hypocrisy. I too am the angirest at those people who exalt themselves as much as the catholic church does.

I didn't start out with jabs at your posts Heidi - I started out simply correcting what you misunderstood about the Catholic Church but you insisted on continuing to repeat these misrepresentations even after you had been corrected many times by myself and others.  To tell an untruth when you know better is to lie.  On top of that you have repeatedly misquoted scripture to get it to say things it is not saying, sometimes not even quoting it the same way two posts in a row.

Pick any post I have made where I accuse you lying in the previous post and I will show you exactly where you did just that in the prior post.  If you do not want to review your behavior history I will understand but don't think you will not be challenged by me when you claim I am the one who abused you after the hatred and prejudice towards Catholics you have exhibited on this forum.


More lies.  

Just because we don't agree with your interpretation you say we ignore Christs word.  You are not Christ.

The Church doesn't set itself up as infallible - Christ was the one that gave the Church the authority to bind and loose on earth as in heaven.  If your Church doesn't claim this authority I wonder how it can even see itself as part of Christ's body.

No Catholic worships anyone other than God.  No one in the Catholic Church worships Mary or any of the saints or the statues.  You cannot continue to repeat these misrepresentations of the teachings of the Catholic Church once you have been corrected concerning them without what you are doing being a lie.

The Pope is holy in that as Webster points out in his definition - We call a man holy,when his heart is conformed in some degree to the image of God, and his life is regulated by the divine precepts. Hence, holy is used as nearly synonymous with good, pious, godly.  The Pope is our spiritual father just as Paul was the spiritual father of the Corinthians.

1Co 4:15  For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

So he is the Holy Father - simple.  It is not claiming the same thing for the Pope that is true of God.  No one in the Catholic Church thinks the Pope is God.

If you want to claim that the Catholic Church hoards millions of dollars in gold you better be willing to prove it or it is just more prejudice talking.

Give up the lies and misrepresentations of the Catholic Church.

Excuse me? Where did i lie? I will go back to EVERY single one of your responses to me and quote the jabs you have made to me. Do you normally blame others for your actions? I am sick and tired of your accusations that i am lying. You have not proven that I have lied at any time. A lie is a DLIEBERATE DECISION to say something when you KNOW for a fact it is not true. You do not know the difference between that and a miscommunication!

I will do just that.

You don't think that the catholic church has ignored Jesus's words when theY DELIBERATELY use the term 'father' for their religious leaders when Jesus SPECIFICALLY tells us not to? There is  REASON Jesus USES that term because THAT is the term he and ALL of us are SUPPOSED to use for God! But that's meaningless to you and the catholic church! HOW IS THAT A LIE? Do the catholics NOT call the pope, "OUR HOLY FATHER? Jesus said that "no one is good but God alone' yet the catholic church has not only decided that it is good but HOLY and INFALLIBLE as well. Do they NOT do that? How am I lying? Jesus told us that when we fast, disguise ourselves tso that no one will know that we are fasting but God alone. But the catholic church sets aside 40 days for fasting and people put ASHES on their forhead to SHOW that they are fasting! Is that a lie??? Jesus said to be in the world but not of the the world. yet the pope is surrounded by luxurious gold and bronze, gold-studded altars and magnificent attire. How is that being in the world but not OF the world? The vatican has a cauldron of treaures in gold kept inside the vatican (I just saw this the other night in a documentary on the vatican. In addition, the statue of apollo, the Pagan god is in the vatican! Never mind that there is NO place in the bible that says that Mary was a virgin all her life and in fact, the bible says the opposite. And there is CERTAINLY no place in the bible where it says that we are to pray to Mary. In fact, when people in the crowd said "Blessed is the woman who gave birth to you", Jesus said, "Blessed, rather, is the one who hears the word of God and obeys it." These arejust a few examples of how the catholic chuch ignores Jesus's words yet claims to love him. What in ANY of these things do the catholic NOT od? where have I lied?

When you say that the Catholic Church says we have to earn our salvation through works and can't even offer a source for such a statement and then I and others correct you on it again and again but you continue to repeat this opinion - then it becomes a lie.

The first time is a mistake, the second time could be due to a miscommunication the thrid time it is you lying just to make it easier for you to hate and attack Catholics.


When many on this board have shown you time and time again where your simplistic literal interpretation would also make Paul out to be one who ignores the word of God and you refuse to stop saying that about Catholics, then your statements become a lie because the Catholic Church is doing nothing that Paul did not do and you know it.


Again it is your literal, simplistic, childish interpretation of verses that people have corrected you in repeatedly that is getting you in trouble.

Are you claiming that Jesus was not good?

You answered this once saying that because He humbled Himself He was exalted.  Whihc was just a non-answer ducking the question.

So I will ask you more directly.

When Jesus was humbling Himself, before He was exalted - was He good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not perfect?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not God?

Because if there was not as I and others here believe, then Jesus was not being literal in that verse and your interpretation is wrong as has been pointed out many times before to you and yet you continue to make your statement, knowing it is wrong and that makes it a lie.



Yes that is a lie.  Lent is for more than fasting and Catholics who observe Lent properly do not make a show of fasting.  The putting of ashes on the forehead has nothing to do with fastign either.  Many Catholics do extra works of service during Lent.  Did you know that?  Well if you didn't then it appears your use of the 40 days of Lent as a showing off is flawed since it didn't help Catholics show off their works did it?  Your misunderstanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church run so deep that you have only the hatred you have been taught to go on - no real facts.  Take my suggestion Heidi and don't make claims about the Catholic Church unless you can document them with unbiased sources, then you will be sure to steer away from errors and from repeating these errors after being corrected in them (which makes your repeated statement a lie).


Where did you see this?  Nonsense - provide a verifiable unbiased source for these or stop repeating these lies.



No place in the scriptures say she wasn't either so it is possible she was and all of the early Church Fathers say she was.  So you can believe the history of the Church or you can make up your own mind without any support from the scriptures.  You against the early Church Fathers - guess who I am going to believe?


And you have been told before that Catholics do not pray to Mary in the sense of adoration.  We pray with her and ask her to pray for us just as we would another Christian here on earth.  But yet you continue to spread this misrepresentation without proof and after being corrected, so you knwo it is not true, that makes what you are saying a lie.


Yes and scripture also says

Luk 1:28  And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

See the Holy Spirit is saying she is blessed among all women, she favored is above all women.  is the Holy Spirit and Jesus disagreeing here?  No, because Jesus did not intend His statement to be a slam against His mother (that would be dishonoring His mother and breaking a commandment).  Jesus intended this to be a lesson that we could be blessed too, by hearing His word and obeying it.  What happened to faith alone just there?  Why isn't Jesus saying that to be blessed all we have to do is believe?  Because that is not all we have to do and if you read all of scripture and interpret it so it doesn't contradict each other you see that.

Once again your simplistic interpretations have gotten you in trouble.


I have showed you all your lies - 8 in all and that is just in this post!  We haven't even covered you misquoting scripture (sometimes in more than one way) just to prove a point.

Michael, does the catholic church believe or not believe that faith alone saved? If it does not believe that, then it is saying that salvation is dependant on our behavior. Is that true or false? It is the HOLY SPIRIT inside of us that brings us closer to God, Michael. it is the Holy spirit INSIDE of us that gives us the ability to believe Jesus, and do good works. It is God who is the gardner, as Jesus said, and cuts off the branches that bear no fruit. That's why Jesus said; "I can do NOTHING without my Father," and that he himself is not good. He gives complete and total credit for everything he did to the miraculous power of God. he does NOT give it to himself which is why he haid; "He who humbles himself will be exalted."  Therefore, once we receive the Holy Spirit, we are saved because the Holy Spirit, not only will NEVER drive us away, but will LEAD us toward God. That is precisely why faith alone saves. What part of this do you not understand?

And MANY on this board have ALSO shown you that faith ALONE saves, but you continue to ignore them.

Michael, do you know why Jesus said; "no one is good but God alone"? Those are HIS words, NOT mine. I have told you before why Jesus is exalted and that he who humbles HIMSELF will be exalted. Jesus is PERFECT because he tells the truth! His goodness comes fromg GOD, which he clearly says many times, not HIMSELF! I understand why he said that because it is not ME who is good but the Holy Spirit INSIDE of me that brings me into goodness. YOU, however, are saying that WE in and of ourselves are good. Otherwise, why would you even ask me the question of if I think Jesus is good or not? You would KNOW that your goodness comes from God, just as Jesus said that HIS goodness comes from God. What part of Jesus giving the credit for his goodness to GOD, do you not understand?

How do you know that catholics do extra service during lent if they kept it a secret, Michael? I have seen MANY catholics put ashes on their forheads. Why do they do that? Jesus said that people who do things like that are for the praises of men. I don't broadcast my fasting or service because it's between myself and God, and NOT for the praises of men.

Jesus is the Son of God. He always claimed that there is one greater than Himself. That's why He calls God his FATHER. When talking about the hour that he will come, he said, "No one knows the hour, not even the Son, but only the father. he gives omniscience to God and God alone. He acknowledges that he only knows what God has given him to know, which is FAR MORE than the rest of us human beings.

Oh, so not only am i a liar, but the people who were interviewed about the gold that is in the vatican are all liars as well? I've SEEN the vatican. It's  a palace fit for a king! I guess everyone who doesn't agree with your interpretations are all liars. Sorry, Michael, you need to look at the plank in your own eye before trying to remove the mote from others.
 You don't believe Jesus's words when he said that "no one is good but God alone", you don't believe when he says that "no one can snatch them out of my hand" or that we must be born again of water and sprit to enter heaven, that faith ALONE saves when he said, "therefore, i tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, and believe that you have received it, it will be yours." Oh you say that you believe them, but you have just challenged me about Him saying that he is not good, you've challenged me by saying that ANYONE can be snatched out of his hand by simply walking away. Your accusations of lies will NOT cover up your contradictions. They are only done to try to discredit Jesus's words. But you can't openly say you discredit them so you instead say that it's my interpretation of them. My interpretation of them is simply to believe them. But you do not believe Jesus when he said, "no one is good but God alone." I believe Him.

No it does not because the scriptures do not say that it does as I have shown you many times.


That is true, but not dependent in a manner in which our behavior earns or merits that salvation.


Yes but only when we cooperate with the grace given to us by God.  The Holy Spirit does not force us to be closer to God.  He knocks but we must open, He leads but we must follow.


That is exactly as I have been saying all along, but we must do the works and freely decide to have the faith.  yes the Spirit makes us able to do these things butit is still us doing them, we are not forced to by the Spirit.


So by your doctrine we can be part of the vine (which is Christ), which means we have the Holy Spirit in us and yet bear no fruit?  How is that possible Heidi?  how did the Holy Spirit fail to produce fruit?  Your doctrine makes no sense.  

The reason we fail to produce fruit even when we are part of the vine and have the Holy Spirit in us is because we fail to cooperate with the Holy Spirit.  It is our failing not the Holy Spirit failing.  And what happens to those of us who fail to cooperate with the Holy Spirit?  We are cast into the fire (hell) and burned.


I ask you again - are you claiming that Jesus was not good?

You answered this once saying that because He humbled Himself He was exalted.  Which was just a non-answer ducking the question.

So I will ask you more directly.

When Jesus was humbling Himself, before He was exalted - was He good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not perfect?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not God?

If you answer yes to even one of those questions you are denying the divinity of Jesus.

Heidi - Do you believe that Jesus is God and always was God?


I don't understand why you cannot provide a single verse that says we are saved by faith alone and the only way you can get to this conclusion is to incorrectly interpret verses in isolation.


Name one and quote their argument or show me the post you claim exists.  Otherwise stop misrepresenting the truth.


So are you claiming that Jesus is not God?



No I am not - when did I ever say that - stop misrepresenting my position just to make your look stronger.

We are not good of ourselves, but the grace of God makes it possible for us to do good works.  That has always been my position.  Why do you seek to misrepresent it?



I ask you because you seem to imply that you interpret the verse literally when you say that  "His goodness comes fromg GOD, which he clearly says many times, not HIMSELF! "  as if Jesus and God were not the same.



I do not understand how anyone could take that verse literally when to do so leads one (as it did you) to separate Jesus from God as if His goodness comes from outside.  We know that is not the case (because Jesus is God) so it is clear that verse is not to be taken literally.


Well lets see?  Because I am a Catholic and I know what I do.  Or maybe because I know the teachings of the Church and you don't.  Or I work with other Catholics and see them doing it.


Do you know what is said at the service of Ash Wednesday Heidi?  Do you knwo anything about it other than the outward signs?  And yet you feel comfortable judging it.  Shame shame.

The words spoken are Dust to dust and ashes to ashes.  It is a reminder that we were made by God from the dust of the earth and what we do and what we are so insignificant that we will return to dust.  Only our souls will go on.  So rather than a time of exalting it is a time of humbling.  But you wouldn't understand that because you judge Catholics on your prejudice and biases rather than on a true understanding of what the Church teaches.


Catholics aren't broadcasting their fasting, some don't even fast - do you know which ones?  Guess your little barometer of ashes on the forehead doesn't work.


This is in reference to the jewish wedding custom that the groom (Jesus) would go off and prepare a home for the new bride (the Church) and the father of the groom (the Father) decided when the hosue was good enough so the young man wouldn't in his haste to be married make something unsuitable.  It is a metaphor for the marriage feast of the lamb in heaven at the end of the world.  You would know these type of things if you studied to show yourself approved.  but you want to approach everything in a simplistic literal interpretation which is failing you more and more as we talk.  This verse is not intended to show a separation between God and Jesus.


So are you claiming that Jesus was just a human being and was not God?  That Jesus is not omniscient? All powerful?  God?


I don't know about the people interviewed or even if they exist until you provide a verifiable unbiased reference I can check.

I have been to the Vatican as well and it is spendid.  But it is mostly museums which generate moneys to be spent on the poor throughout the world.  The Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world - did you know that Heidi or did you just learn hatred?  The Pope does not live in the splendid rooms of the museum his rooms are comfrotable but modest and I am sure you have never seen those.  But thanks for going to the Vatican the moey you gave the tour company went to help support poor people all over the world.  

So, Michael, you have shown that i was NOT lying when i said that the catholics don't believe in faith alone, but salvation is dependant upon our behavior. Next time before you accuse me of lying, it would behoove you to read and understand my posts!

How do you think we CO-OPERATE with the Holy spirit? Just luck? or do you think our wonderful nature does it? do you even think?

who do you think LEADS us to do those works? The devil? Our wonderful nature?

It ISN'T possible to bear no fruit if we have the Holy Spirit in us which is PRECISELY why NO ONE CAN SNATCH HIS TRUE SHEEP OUT OUT OF HIS HAND!!!!! That is what I've been saying in MOST of my posts! The branches that bear no fruit are the ones THAT HAVE NO ROOT. The ROOT is the Holy spirit! Again, Jesus said that there will be MANY who call him 'Lord" yet will NOT enter heaven because he never KNEW them. In all of Jesus's passages he synonmizes the word "know" with the Holy Spirit.

And i ask you again; do you not believe Jesus when he said that no one is good but God alone? You still have not answered that question. I have answered your question but you don't know what Jesus means when he said; "He who humbles himself will be exalted." If you understood thsoe words, you would understand my answer, Michael. if you don't then no explanation will suffice until you have the mind of the spirit.

But that is not what you said in your post - you accused Catholics of having to earn their salvation.  That is not the same thing - so you were lying - you cannot rephrase your claim now to hide you lie in the past.


Our free will makes a decision whether to respond to the grace of God or not.  How do we decide to do anything?  Oh that's right - I know you don't think we do decide to do anything because you deny our free will.


The Holy Spirit leads but we must follow.
 

So when Christ said that he would cut off those from the vine (remove us from Himself) if we did not bear fruit He was bluffing?  Nonsense.  Why would Christ warn us against something that could not happen?


But Jesus was not talking about branches that have no root, because the branches He was referring to were connected to Him (the vine) so they had access to the Holy Spirit.  You cannot have it both ways.


Again you misquote the verse and mangle it to match your doctrine.  Jesus doesn't say we don't get into heaven because we don't know Him - read the verse.

Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

They didn't get into heaven (even though they had great faith - enough to cast out demons and work miracles) because they did WORKS of iniquity.  Who do you think was casting out the demons - Satan?  

Mat 12:26  And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand?

The men themselves?   We both know that is laughable.

No, it was the Holy Spirit that allowed these men to cast out devils and work miracles and yet somewhere along the way they went wrong and did works of iniquity, abandon the Holy Spirit and lost their salvation.

It does say that Jesus will claim to not know them, it DOES NOT say they did not know Him.  You can't just twist the verse to say anything you want it to.

It also does not say that the reason they were not let in was because He didn't know them.  The reason they were not let in was because they did WORKS of iniquity and that was both why they were not let in and why He did not really know them.



I ave answered it many times in many posts for you, but here it is again.  Yes I do but I do not believe your literal interpretation of the verse.  I have also explained what the verse means when properly interpreted.  It is as I explained above a leading of men to recognize Jesus as God, since God is good and Jesus is good.  We too can be good with the help of the grace of God and the Holy Spirit.

We know this because a good tree brings forth good fruit so if we bring forth good fruit we are a good tree.

Now you may claim that the tree is really the holy spirit (that it produces the fruit).  But we know that is an incorrect interpretation because of the following verse:

Mat 3:10  For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that doth not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire.

Now if the Holy Spirit is the tree then how could it be cut down and cast into the fire?  No the tree clearly represents men and we can be either good trees or bad trees, bearing good or bad fruit.


No you have not you have ducked it and soon others on this forum will want to know - does Heidi believe Jesus is God?