You will NEVER hear a "prosperity preacher" giving his message in Ethiopia, or in Guatemala, or in Ukraine, or in any other impoverished country. Why? Because there is no one there with money with which to line the preacher's pockets.

I wonder if the Pharisees were offended when Jesus called them snakes, vipers, whitewashed sepulchers and sons of the devil...I wonder if the ""leaders" in the temple were offended when He violently sacked their operation and called it a den of thieves. I wonder if we have a completely twisted idea of what is and is not inappropriate offensiveness.

WS

I posted above that "offense" is in the eye of the offended. So I think you may have a point.

I bet they were offended. It was that mindset that plotted to have Jesus killed.

Let me un-nice it a little here 

Joel Osteen has trod the Gospel of Christ under foot. Being conformed to the image of Christ is the "mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" that Paul speaks of....(and Joel never does). Equating the size and success of Osteen's "ministry" with God's blessing is prepostrous....Tony Robbins has the same "blessing" for the same reasons. A token smattering of Christian teaching lost in an avalanche of self-help, ear soothing garbage is a horrifying travesty....especially as it becomes the vangard message of "popular" Christianity.

I often think of Paul's prosperity and retirement plan...prison and decapitation.


Rev 2:2
2. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (KJV)

WS

"Un-nice" it, huh? LOL. But what you have posted is accurate. There is NOTHING "nice" about what happened to Jesus in the final 24 hours of His ministry on earth. It was a most horrific series of events. I think I am within the mark when I say that I think God wants us present truth, warts and all, "nice" and "un-nice".

The "un-nice" about which you speak is a result of mankind's fall from grace. The "nice" is the result of God's response to our failure.

The first step to salvation is an acknowledgement of the huge gap that stands between a holy God ("nice") and sinful man ("un-nice"). The next step is top receive the free gift of salvation ("nice") and pardon ("nice") for our sin ("un-nice).

The next thing that SHOULD happen is an opportunity to grow spiritually (discipleship...that is disciplining....training). Most times it is difficult. Even Paul talked about it. He said he did the things he did not want to do and didn't do the things he wanted to do in his struggle to please God. Personally, I have never found being an obedient servant of God to be easy. But it has always been full of joy...even fun.

We have to see both sides to have the whole truth.

I agree. We need many more men like Pastor Hagee.

Messing with Israel is like messing with the Almighty Himself.

God's will WILL be done in and through Israel. If the Lord tarries, Israel will be around when all of us are long forgotten.

[HIM]

Thanks, PR. That was exactly where I wanted to go. You pretty much "bottom lined" it.

And BEP, I agree 100%. And your statement about God knowing that all who are reading these posts and each person's reactions to them, is spot on. There are NO happenstances for Christians. Just divine appointments. God has for eternity known what we encounter each day. This is to God's sovereignty. And we can be thankful that God is indeed sovereign. His plans will come to pass, with or without us. He does NOT NEED us. WE NEED HIM. Desperately!

But the most beatiful part of that desperate need is the fact that He is faithful, even when we are not. He is always available and ready to meet our every need, down to the minutest detail. When we have Christ, we have want of nothing and need of nothing else. He is COMPLETE. And we are complete, totally fulfilled in Him. God and God alone can make that manifest.

What a glorious, gracious, powerful King loves us. 

Pastor Roger, is there any indication that God hears the prayers of the unrighteous...besides their prayer to be saved, I mean?

I hope you see where I'm going with this in relation to OSAS.

[HUGE]

PR,

I suspect your church is not empty and I pray the congregation is not dwindling.  However, the question is where these conditions exist, what are those leaders doing wrong, and How do we avoid those faults in our congregation.  That's what I mean by forensic theology and I still think it is worthy of consideration.  You probably have already considered this and might want to give us the benefit of your experience.

A church where the Bible is not taught...or is not taught to be inerrant...may or may not grow in numbers. But it will NEVER, EVER grow in spiritually.

What makes a strong, vibrant, growing, healthy body is the Word of God being taught unabashedly, unashamedly, unrelentingly. I believe God's Word should be taught expositionally, verse by verse, allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. God knew exactly what He was doing, meant exactly what He was saying, and continues to do so today through the Holy Spirit. He does not mince words. He wrote about His people, warts, pimples, and all. He is well aware of the human condition and chooses to work through it anyway because He is a patient, loving God. If we would  only take Him at His word...just believe what He says at face value...He can do so much more with and through us.

And the payoff for us is HUGE! We cannot, in this sinfilled body and mind in our wildest imaginations, perceive of the glory that awaits us in eternity. 

I owe Him. I owe Him big time. How can I not do my very best to be obedient?

Len and all,

This age-old discussion has divided the body of Christ for so long it is hard to comprehend the entire body of all the printed words.

It all began, as best I can ascertain, with the Synod held in Dordrecht in 1618-19 by the Dutch Reformed Church,  Please see:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Dort

This POLITICAL meeting was arranged by the inheritors of Calvinism to defend their doctrines from the followers of Jacob Arminius in Holland.  Perhaps they were losing congregants, but I'm not sure.

From this interchange there has risen the old Calvinist/Arminist debate.  Both of these folks, when in the HYPER position will barely talk with one another let alone worship together.

I am pleased we seem to be having a sensible discussion hereabouts, so far.

As I am a student of forensic theology, let me ask you all this question.   

Which denomination (belief system) has the most sincere following of these two divergent theologies?

Which one has full churches each and every Sunday?

Is either of the above questions a valid way to find the truth of their beliefs?

If not, then why are so many churches almost empty but for 2 days/year?

I personally wouldn't have a clue as to the answers to the first two questions. I would say no to the third. Answering the fourth question, we are an apostate race. We choose self over God and others. And we are mistaken at thinking that if we go to church on one or both of those 2 "special" days, that our obligation to God has been met (There's that "works" thing again. Thanks for helping me prove my point.) Salvation is FREE. We do not have to...cannot...do anything to accept God's free gift of salvation. God does not hold us accountable for receiving the gift. But he does hold us (believers) accountable for our actions through the rewards of the Bema. 

BTW, I have been accused of being a Calmenian.

Oh, Lord I do love reading about your grace and mercy. I love reading about Jesus' work in our lives. I love thinking about the unbroken and unbreakable promises given us by You, Almighty God, our Savior. And I definitely love reading again about the fact that when You save us, we stay saved for eternity. I could never have peace if that were not so.

BEP, thank you, Brother. Very, very good post. Concise. Precise. To the point. As complete a post as I've seen on the assurance of salvation in everyday terms. Full of reason.

Agree. Agree 100%.

Amen and AMEN!

Thanks for stepping in there, PR.

Doc, if you have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, look up all the references to salvation with the the key word being "know". We can never know if we have salvation if there is any chance that we may have not repented of some slight sin. By "slight", I mean one which we may be dealing with but does not lead to death...such as speeding or dealing with anger we may have for a brother in Christ. Those little things are as big of a sin as murder in the eyes of God. And according to what you have posted, a believer can be doomed to eternity in the lake of fire. I just don't see that in Scripture...and I have looked.

My obedience is not obedience to keep my salvation. It is obedience as a response in appreciation of a sacrifice by a Holy God who gave up His only Begotten Son rather than give me what I so rightly deserve.

Praise Jesus Christ that He looked down from the cross with a mercy-filled heart and took my sin "once and for all" that I might spend all of eternity with Him. What joy fills my heart, mind, soul, and body when I think about that incredible gift, so undeserved by me, a sinner till He takes me home.   

All glory and honor and praise to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Way, the Truth, the Life.

[DOC: Len (sorry about the k) and PR,]

DOC: Len (sorry about the k) and PR,

LEN: Hehe. No sweat. I get it a lot.

DOC Colossians 1 O.G., is "if indeed you continue in the faith having been founded and steadfast..." We are not likely to continue in any faith if we are not founded and steadfast, no? You kinda have the cart before the horse in your interpretation.

Where did the “having been” come from Len?  I can't find that reading in any version I have.  It is not in any Koine Greek mss. either.  It seems to me to be editorialized by the same kind of folks that say “since” instead of “if indeed” in this same verse. OSAS is so powerful a desire in mankind that many assurance verses have to be adjusted to comply with this misinterpretation of Scripture.   (What is O.G., Len?)

LEN: You are quite correct. My bad. I had found some old notes and "...having been..." was part of them but not part of O.G. (original Greek) version. But it still does not change the message.

DOC: The issue of continuing to be faithful after our salvation is demonstrated in Romans - in a good translation - where Paul says: “So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.”  Romans 7:25-8:2  NKJV

As condemnation is the opposite of justification, we can see what Paul is trying to say here.  Any true Christian who intentionally and habitually turns his back on Christ and chooses to “walk in his flesh” jeopardizes his justification.  Now, because God is our only judge, He knows how long and how much of this behavior one must commit to before he has changed his destination.  The contrast between life and death (Spirit/flesh  - Law of God/Law of sin) is unmistakable here.  Paul is not talking of initial decisions here, he is addressing our post-salvation life styles.

LEN: Agreed, in part. This is one Scripture that addresses this issue of those who have seemingly been saved but "fall away". It was one I had looked for for my last post but could not find it. It just so happens it was covered this very morning at my church. Take a look at 1 John 2:19-25. "They went out from us but did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist - he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
"See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what He promised us - even eternal life."

DOC: Flesh or Spirit walking is a day to day choice all Christians must make.  As we mature as born again Christians God desires we progress in our sanctification - become more holy - more set apart for His work.  Grow up in Him.  The Hebrew  writer says: “... we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.  For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.  For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”    Hebrews 5:11- 14 NKJV

LEN: Exactly. For the believer, it has to do with maturity and growth, not for regaining salvation (which was "finished " - Jesus' words -  at Calvary) through works.

DOC: By the way, we do not “loose our salvation” as if we lost a coin thru a hole in our pocket - we decidedly give it away by turning around again (reconvert) - turning our backs on our savior - “...trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?”   Hebrews 10:29 NKJV

LEN: Lose it or throw it away, salvation cannot be gained by works. Why would Jesus go through Calvary if He could show the way and we could work our way to eternity? No, He didn't come to show the way. He became the Way. THE Way. T-H-E Way. The ONLY Way. "Christ died for our sins, once and for all." There is not one half of one single solitary thing we can do to make it happen.

DOC: Why do you folks think these verses are in our Bibles.  Jesus said the Way is narrow and few are on it !  Being a true, heartfelt and obedient Christian is not an easy thing.  A.W. Tozer said the teaching of a “Smooth Cross” was shame in his day.  His cross has many splinters and it hurts to get up on it daily.  Didn't Paul tell us to do that?

LEN: Those verses are there because they are true. Many who call themselves Christians do so, not because they are Christians but because they think that since they have never physically murdered, don't habitually lie, go to church every Sunday (or twice a year), tithe, have "walked the aisle", been dunked by a preacher, or have a family member who does all that stuff. They think they can just claim to be and be saved. They think that just because they know about Christ...believe He exists...that they are saved. "Even the demons believe and shudder." But they do not KNOW Him in a saving way. "Now this is eternal life, that they may KNOW You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." When we know Him in that way, we HAVE eternal life...right now..."once and for all". THEN comes the maturation...the growth.

[if indeed you continue in the faith]

Ken,

These are verses I apply to the assurance of salvation we all enjoy - simply by avoiding the bad decisions referred to herein.


Col 1:21-23
“And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard."   Some Calvinists change “if indeed” to “since” here to preserve 5 point Calvinism.  The Koine does not allow for this spin.

Matt 24:12-13
“Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”   Yes, Ken, I believe “once saved, always saved, but you have to stay saved !”

Heb 10:36-39
“For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "For yet a little while,  And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.  Now the just shall live by faith;  But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.  But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”    To draw back in Koine means "to reduce sai"l - sometimes to the point of loss of forward motion.  Green says “the Christian life is like riding a bicycle, if you stop pedaling, you fall off.”

2 Peter 2:18-21
“For when they* speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.   For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them."

I see no reason to limit the application of this verse to *false teachers - it applies to us all.  Do we truly know the way of righteousness?  Have we escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?  Have we actually escaped from those who live in error?  Well Ken, what happens if we tire of these victories and go back to our old ways?  God will accept our repentance from our fallen position - He forgives all sin if He sees sincerity in our hearts.  We will be reinstated just like Peter was.  This is what the Holy Spirit  is trying to communicate to us thru the Hebrew writer.

These are but a few examples of the Biblical fact that our salvation is conditional upon our abiding in Him and remaining faithful and obedient as long as we breathe. Most every time there is an "if" in Scripture it states a condition for the object.

As far as snatching is concerned:"... I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.   My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."  John 10:28-29  NKJV - I agree Ken, we are protected from all outside influences when we are truly dedicated to loving and following Jesus.  But please notice above the choices we all continue to make re:following Him !  We can always jump out of His hand if we choose to be so foolish.  Christians do it all the time.

Colossians 1 O.G., is "if indeed you continue in the faith having been founded and steadfast..." We are not likely to continue in any faith if we are not founded and steadfast, no? You kinda have the cart before the horse in your interpretation.

In Matthew, Christ is speaking of a result of salvation, not a cause.

In Hebrews, He is talking about the Heavenly reward to be received at the Bema. O.G. says "recompense". Salvation is not recompense. Reward at the Bema is recompense for good works done in His power and name. God is indeed not pleased by us if we shrink back from His will as believers. But we do not lose our salvation due to not doing good works. We lose reward at the Bema. You should have started at least at verse 35 which says, "So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded."

2 Peter is talking about those who have heard the plan of salvation but reject it for themselves. Those people are never saved if they don't change their minds.   

Now, I would refer you to

Romans 8:1,2. "There is therefore, now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death."
When we are saved, we no longer are under the law but under grace.

Romans 8:38 "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
I am in creation. My works...good, bad, and indifferent...are in creation, all things afre in creation. Yet none can separate me from His love.
 

John10:28,29 This one you seem to want to ignore at face value.

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."
Our good works do not lead to salvation. As far as salvation, they are as filthy rags.(Is. 64:5,6) They only lead to reward as mentioned in Hebrews 10:35.

2 Corinthians 1:21,22 "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ ands anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge".
If we are sealed but can lose our salvation, the seal is not a seal. Are you saying the seal is not really a seal?

These are just a very few that come to the mind of a lay person. I am not a pastor. I am no Bible scholar. I have no degree in theoology. I am just a working stiff who is in the trades. But I know that when God says something, i can lay my life in it and rest secured in the knowledge that He backs his word with action, and always to my joy and celebration.


I would appreciate anyone else's help on this. Feel free to jump in anytime. I knwo there are countless verses that show clearly that once salvation is ours, it never is lost and never has to be gained again.

[know]

Do I understand you, doc, that you think salvation can be lost? If you do, my friend, please review Scripture. Christ Himself said that we can never be plucked from the hand of God. Was He lying or mistaken? If He was either, then Christ is not God, His Word is a lie, and you and I are wasting our time talkling about all of this.

Holy Scripture is replete with the assurance of salvation. Christ said we can know that we have eternal life. If we can lose our salvation, how can we know we have eternal life?