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1  Theology / Debate / Re:Calvinism on: June 04, 2004, 12:13:10 AM
Ten Effects of Believing in the Five Points of Calvinism
April 20, 2002
These ten points are my personal testimony to the effects of believing in the five points of Calvinism. I have just completed teaching a seminar on this topic and was asked by the class members to post these reflections so they could have access to them. I am happy to do so. They, of course, assume the content of the course, which is available on tape from Desiring God Ministries, but I will put them here for wider use in the hope that they might stir others to search, Berean-like, to see if the Bible teaches what I call "Calvinism."
1. These truths make me stand in awe of God and lead me into the depth of true God-centered worship.
I recall the time I first saw, while teaching Ephesians at Bethel College in the late '70's, the threefold statement of the goal of all God's work, namely, "to the praise of the glory of his grace" (Ephesians 1:6, 12, 14).
It has led me to see that we cannot enrich God and that therefore his glory shines most brightly not when we try to meet his needs but when we are satisfied in him as the essence of our deeds. "From him and through him and to him are all things. To him the glory forever" (Romans 11:36). Worship becomes an end in itself.
It has made me feel how low and inadequate are my affections, so that the Psalms of longing come alive and make worship intense.
2. These truths help protect me from trifling with divine things.
One of the curses of our culture is banality, cuteness, cleverness. Television is the main sustainer of our addiction to superficiality and triviality.
God is swept into this. Hence the trifling with divine things.
Earnestness is not excessive in our day. It might have been once. And, yes, there are imbalances in certain people today who don't seem to be able to relax and talk about the weather.
Robertson Nicole said of Spurgeon, "Evangelism of the humorous type [we might say, church growth of the marketing type] may attract multitudes, but it lays the soul in ashes and destroys the very germs of religion. Mr. Spurgeon is often thought by those who do not know his sermons to have been a humorous preacher. As a matter of fact there was no preacher whose tone was more uniformly earnest, reverent and solemn" (Quoted in The Supremacy of God in Preaching, p. 57).
3. These truths make me marvel at my own salvation.
After laying out the great, God-wrought salvation in Ephesians 1, Paul prays, in the last part of that chapter, that the effect of that theology will be the enlightenment of our hearts so that we marvel at our hope, and at the riches of the glory of our inheritance, and at the power of God at work in us – that is, the power to raise the dead.
Every ground of boasting is removed. Brokenhearted joy and gratitude abound.
The piety of Jonathan Edwards begins to grow. When God has given us a taste of his own majesty and our own wickedness, then the Christian life becomes a thing very different than conventional piety. Edwards describes it beautifully when he says,
The desires of the saints, however earnest, are humble desires: their hope is a humble hope, and their joy, even when it is unspeakable, and full of glory, is humble, brokenhearted joy, and leaves the Christian more poor in spirit, and more like a little child, and more disposed to a universal lowliness of behavior (Religious Affections, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1959, pp. 339f).
4. These truths make me alert to man-centered substitutes that pose as good news.
In my book, The Pleasures of God (2000), pp. 144-145, I show that in the 18th century in New England the slide from the sovereignty of God led to Arminianism and thence to universalism and thence to Unitarianism. The same thing happened in England in the 19thcentury after Spurgeon.
Iain Murray's Jonathan Edwards: A New Biography (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1987), p. 454, documents the same thing: "Calvinistic convictions waned in North America. In the progress of the decline which Edwards had rightly anticipated, those Congregational churches of New England which had embraced Arminianism after the Great Awakening gradually moved into Unitarianism and universalism, led by Charles Chauncy."
You can also read in J. I. Packer's Quest for Godliness (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 1990), p. 160, how Richard Baxter forsook these teachings and how the following generations reaped a grim harvest in the Baxter church in Kidderminster.
These doctrines are a bulwark against man-centered teachings in many forms that gradually corrupt the church and make her weak from the inside, all the while looking strong or popular.
1 Timothy 3:15, "The church of the living God [is] the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
5. These truths make me groan over the indescribable disease of our secular, God-belittling culture.
I can hardly read the newspaper or look at a TV ad or a billboard without feeling the burden that God is missing.
When God is the main reality in the universe and is treated as a non-reality, I tremble at the wrath that is being stored up. I am able to be shocked. So many Christians are sedated with the same drug as the world. But these teachings are a great antidote.
And I pray for awakening and revival.
And I try to preach to create a people that are so God-saturated that they will show and tell God everywhere and all the time.
We exist to reassert the reality of God and the supremacy of God in all of life.
6. These truths make me confident that the work which God planned and began, he will finish – both globally and personally.
This is the point of Romans 8:28-39.
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died- more than that, who was raised- who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
7. These truths make me see everything in the light of God's sovereign purposes – that from him and through him and to him are all things, to him be glory forever and ever.
All of life relates to God. There's no compartment where he is not all-important and the one who gives meaning to everything. 1 Corinthians 10:31.
Seeing God's sovereign purpose worked out in Scripture, and hearing Paul say that "he accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11) makes me see the world this way.
8. These truths make me hopeful that God has the will, the right, and the power to answer prayer that people be changed.
The warrant for prayer is that God may break in and change things – including the human heart. He can turn the will around. "Hallowed be thy name" means: cause people to hallow your name. "May your word run and be glorified" means: cause hearts to be opened to the gospel.
We should take the New Covenant promises and plead with God to bring them to pass in our children and in our neighbors and among all the mission fields of the world.
"God, take out of their flesh the heart of stone and give him a new heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 11:19).
"Lord, circumcise their hearts so that they love you" (Deuteronomy 30:6).
"Father, put your spirit within them and cause them to walk in Your statutes" (Ezekiel 36:27).
"Lord, grant them repentance and the knowledge of the truth that they may escape from the snare of the devil" (2 Timothy 2:25-26).
"Father, open their hearts so that they believe the gospel" (Acts 16:14).
9. These truths reminds me that evangelism is absolutely essential for people to come to Christ and be saved, and that there is great hope for success in leading people to faith, but that conversion is not finally dependent on me or limited by the hardness of the unbeliever.
So it gives hope to evangelism, especially in the hard places and among the hard peoples.
John 10:16, "I have other sheep that are not of this fold, I must bring them also. They will heed my voice."
It is God's work. Throw yourself into it with abandon.
10. These truths make me sure that God will triumph in the end.
Isaiah 46:9-10, "I am God and there is no other. I am God and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand that I will accomplish all my purpose'"
Putting them altogether: God gets the glory and we get the joy.


From:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/ten_effects.html
2  Theology / Debate / Re:Calvinism on: June 04, 2004, 12:09:14 AM
All you really have to do is find a way to classify your neighbor to be a non-elect, and Wala!  You don't have to love him or her.  Woo hoo!    Then you wont have to h elp them if they need help and you wont have to forgive them if they sin.  You wont even have to associate with them.  The supposed "elect" become an exclusive group of people that consider themselves to be superior.  Christs says, he who wants to be the greatest needs to be the least and Christ also was INCLUSIVE.  Christ didn't want to exclude any body  ooooh, not even sinners were excluded by Christ.  

No...We still have to love everyone, wether they are elect or not...the idea that you don't have to love everyone isn't Calvinism...might be hyperCalvinism though..hyperClavinism= BAD....and it isn't humanly possible to know if someone is elect or not prior to their slavation anyway...and you can't know if someone will be saved in the future or not...

I'm very confused as to where you got your ideas about Calvinism...please explain...
3  Theology / Debate / Re:Calvinism on: June 03, 2004, 12:01:33 PM
 So, you worship Calvin do you?
No, I don't. Grin I worship God.
Essentially if all that were true, that would give you an excuse not to love your neighbor.  
Don't see where you get that.
Aha!  The true reason for the existence of fancy doctrines is to weasil out of doing what God really wants.  Love God, Love Your neighbor.  all the fancy doctrines in the world with men's names on them essentially weasily you out of doing what god wants.  Fine.  Worship man if you wish but when God says he never knew you later in life, you'll know why.
Wow...um...I DONT Worship man....God is my focus and main priority...this is a debate thread and I enjoy dicussing Calvinism and Amrinianism...so I started this thread...Please don't ever question my salvation, unless you actually know me
Calvin was a man of God, but his teachings have many holes in them.
They're all BIblical and that's the important thing.
Sometimes the way Protestants refer to Calvin is almost as bad as the way Catholics refer to the Pope.
Ah...but the way the refer to Arminius is even worse Wink
4  Theology / Debate / Re:Calvinism on: May 30, 2004, 10:44:55 AM
Whosoever will, come..
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus told the parable of the great feast, where the invited guests would not come, so the host sent for the lame, the troubled, the sick...

I'm glad you brought that parable up.  Matthew 22:14, the concluding verse, makes an interesting statement...it reads, "For many are invited, but few are chosen"  another translation states, "For many are invited, bur few are enabled" It's interesting to think about...many are invited, but few arechosen... I'll explain my interpretation of it in a little bit, first I want to hear yours.

God is not willing that any should perish..
Of course He isn't, but He knows that it isn't possible for everyone to accept His son...That's why He for some reason chose us to predestine as sons (and daughters) Wink

That all they should believe a lie, that received not the love of the truth...
I am confused as to what you are trying to point out here...

I for one, however, believe that God knows how to make people with a "free will".

Course God knows how to make people with a free will....

Everyone gets a chance to recieve Him.
Ahh...but only those who are elect CAN recieve Him...

Unbelief, forever rejecting the Son, is of course the only "unforgivable sin" Jesus could have been talking about.
I am confused as to what you are getting at here...is this inresponse to Limited Atonement? If so can you clarify your position on it?
5  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Desert Island - Three books Only - What Are They? on: May 29, 2004, 08:34:01 PM
Well...
1. john Calvin's Institutes
2. My Utmost for His Highest by Oswald Cahmbers
3. Hmm....The Reformed Pastor and The Defense of CHristiantity & My Credo By Cornelius Van Til or Something Lewis.
6  Theology / Apologetics / Question on: May 29, 2004, 01:54:47 PM
Ok everyone....I've gotsa question for you
 Col. 1:24
"Now I rejoince in what was suffered for you and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body which is the church."

What in the world are CHrist's afflictions lacking? And how can a human Paul fill that in his flesh? Huh Huh
7  Welcome / Questions, help, suggestions, and bug reports / Teens on: May 29, 2004, 01:44:46 PM
I'm not sure where to put this...but I figure here will work out...

Are there any other teens on this forum?

Secondly,if there are would it be possible that we get a "Christian teens" board? Just because we deal with certain struggles that other ages don't deal with and we enjoy fellowshipping with those our own age.
8  Theology / Debate / Re:Calvinism on: May 29, 2004, 01:39:44 PM
Alright...So you can't loose your salvation, because that would imply that CHrist's sacrifice was not enough to satisfy the penalty for all your sins past, present, and future,

Another verse..
Romans 8:38-39
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers neither hieghth nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of GOd that isin Christ Jesus our Lord."

ps...all the verse and passages a quoted are NIV
9  Theology / General Theology / Re:Calvinism/Arminianism on: May 29, 2004, 01:32:05 PM
I agree with you...I'm a Calvinist, all the way, but most of my best friends are arminians...we have debates and argue about stuff, but we all accept the fact that we're all Christians...I can't stand it when people say "Arminians aren't Christains" or "Calvinists aren't Christians."  I love Calvinism and enjoy debating it... when it gets to the point that people start doubting if the other side is really Christian...that's going to far.
10  Theology / General Theology / Calvinism/Arminianism on: May 29, 2004, 01:05:00 PM
Well...I justed wanted to see where people stand on Calvinism and Arminianism around here...feel free to post and explain your veiws...
 God bless!
11  Welcome / About You! / Hello people on: May 29, 2004, 12:45:27 PM
 :)Hello...I'm new here...*nodnod* Anyway..thought I'd say Hi and tell you all a little bit about me...
I am 16 years old and I have been called to the mission field somewhere in Asia.  I love Jesus much...I likes math and swing dancing too. oh..and I am a calvinist
12  Theology / Debate / Calvinism on: May 29, 2004, 11:51:52 AM
Calvinism is a wonderful doctrine!!! Anyway...I want to get a Calvinism/Arminianism debate going, because it'll be fun

Calvinism:
1. Total Depravity:
Man is totally deprave and incapable od coming to God on His own
2. Unconditional Election:
God in His Sovereign grace decided before the creation of the world who would come to HIm...not just foreknowlendge, but actual election
3. Limited Atonement:
Christ died for the sins of only the elect.
4. Irrestistable Grace:
You can't resist God's calling to you if you are elcet. Neither can you come without God's drawing
5. Preservation of the Saints:
Eternal security.

Now I will supply a passage or 2 of Biblical back-up (although there are plenty more) and sometimes (when I think it nessesary) a logical proof for each element.

1. Biblical Back up:
Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and light no man comes to the Father but by me."
Logical back up: Adam and Eve sinned and were banished form Eden because of it.  When their children were born, they had no opportunity to commit a sin yet, but they were not allowed to go back in the garden.  Why is this? Because they were totally deprave....they could not return to God.  The only thing that separates us from God is sin. thus they were separted from God because of sin... even though they are only babies.

2.Biblical back up:
Ephesians 1:2-12
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.  11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory"
Logical Back-up:
alright...that passage says it all...I don't feel like I need to explain it anymore. Just let me say thatthe passage says pretty specifically Chosen...NOT FOREKNEW...
3.Biblical back-up
John15:13
"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends"
Matthew 20:28
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to
serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Logical Back-up:
Well note that the verses say MANY and for His FRIENDS first of all... Then let's dive into a logical exploration of limited atonement!
The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:
All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:
That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?
You answer, "Because of unbelief."
I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"
4. Biblical back-up:
 John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Logical proof:
Does it really need one? If it does I'll give it later.
5.Biblical proof.
John6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Ahhh...I've got to go now...I'll finish preservation later!
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