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Dear Michael

       I saw your site, and i do have to say that it appears to be so at first glace.  However, ive been reading scripture for a while, and i just cant see your argument on that.  Genesis for example, why did God gave the apple in the first place - to make people stumble?  I really don't think so because it does not match his Charactor.
        If you want to go through these Bible-Controdictions with me, then that would be great on one condition - One at a time.  That means, we deal with one controdiction and once we are done with that, we move on to the next.  Does that sound good to you?

Agur

lol, crazy show, bro. Agur, lighten up, bro, it is just a joke.

Dear Tibby,

       I went though this site, and frankly, i have enough experiene to know that these jokes are not jokes at all.  If it were a Christian site, it would have answers for each "Controdiction."  If it were a joke, it would not use harsh words "Wrong, You are going to Hell" if you choose what the auther considered wrong and display passages that indecate someting that we would not normally see jesus as Loving and forgiving.  There were about 12 questionaires, and at the end, there were no disclaimers but shows other sites that has the same sarcasim.
       I spoke and debated with atheists and agnostics (if time allows) for three years and I know the kinds of questions they asked.  Honestly, after looking at that site, how can anyone believe that such a site is a joke especially when it is dealing with verses that are the least understood on grounds of fairness?  And unless you are a skeptic trying to provoke a reaction, how can you not see that?  If you can point out where i missed a disclaimer, or aan indication that the auther meant no harm, I believe that this site is an attempt to discredit the Bible.

       Needless to say, this site in question did not act sincerely in their argument in my opinon; otherwise, shouldn't it have a moral for Fundamentalists to get their heads out of an oppresive faith?  It would have been an outreach but instead, it simply ridicules.

What are you talking about here?

Tibby the site and it's uninformed questionaire where pretty offensive to me.  They didn't even post scripture but twisted and contorted words to discredit the bible.  It was pretty pathetic but I don't expect too much from the unknowing.

Ofcourse they are uninformed answers! The guy is just messing around. If he was serous, he would find some simi-HARD fact that would dispute Christianity. All of that is fluff logic. You'd have to be pretty hard pressured for fact against Christian to actually be serous about that little slide show!

Dear Tibby,

       In my experience, the stuff he presented, is serious.  I go in chatrooms from time to time, and have dealt issues but particularly, Bible-Controdictions; the verse presented in that slide show, are the very same ones I had to deal with.  And I wasn't talking to happy people either, they were angry, upset, and cynical.  Unfortunatly, I have met also, those who deliberatly twist God's Word simply to win arguments.
       Since you were not offended, I'd like to know why you think it is the other way around because I think we either missed something or you have some explaining to do.  Unless you yourself is a skeptic, I can't see why you have such a loose opinion, especially when the site itself is making a strong statement against the Bible.

Ok, maybe he isn’t joking. The site is still a joke. Take any Christian on this board through it point by point, and they can disprove it without a problem.

Either way, I’m a Catholic and a Charismatic in Baptist country. I’ve heard a lot worst then that. You want offensive? How about your brothers in Christ telling you that you’re a pagan, and when you explain you don’t “worship Mary” these people (who have never been in a Catholic Church once, mind you) say you do. Agur, I STAY offended! :D

Dear Tibby:

       I have a testamony to share with you about that.  It goes along with what you were saying about the other jokes to heard.
       What was told to you certainly wasn't jokes, thus im sorry that you had to hear them.  I grew up Catholic, and actually loved the Catholic Church before I was saved.  I loved praying to God, I urged my parents to take me to Confessions like what the saints do and I wanted one day to become a Franciscan Monk.  The reason why I came to love the Church is because of the Bible.  I began to read my mom's NIV and it changed my life, it made me want to go to Church, it inspired me to do good for other people, and prevented me from breaking the rules around me.  However, I was a little different.
       Since i grew up reading the Bible, I didn't do things that normal Catholics do such as praying to Mary (keep in mind, I didn't know much about that).  However, as I learned more and more about the RCC, I began to pray the rosary, I kept it in my pocket or around my neck (oops, not a necklace)!  During that time, I did knowtice something a bit off.  I remember that neither the apostles, nor the Christians in the Bible prayed to anyone except God.  I also noticed, that they weren't repeating their prayers either, and the fact that Mary wasn't really promenant in scripture - why is that?  With those things in mind, I felt discouraged.  This was the beginning of a turn.  
       As time went on, cult groups began to reach me.  One in particular, a JW, showed me the Bible, and my eyes are opening to the realization that the RCC is wrong.  After half a year, I got tired of them because thye seem arrogant so i left.  As a result, I became stronger and more defiant as a Catholic than ever before; I finally studied the RCC doctrine, I printed pages of Catholic Apologetics, and studied against the possible encounter of our protestant enemies.  I'm going to make sure that their laughter ends with me.  As I studied further, the Bible, of all the enemies I can think of became a thorn on my side.  I looked at verses used to defend the Church, I remembered the context around the verse.  When I looked into a verse that says, "suffer the little children to me," in order to defend Infant Baptism.  As I read, "Wait-a-minuite, thats not exactly right," the passage wasn;t really talking about that doctrine but merely Jesus permitting kids to come to him.  Needless to say, I was having a hard time.  Soon after, a cult-group followed a few years after; i was sucked into it (see: www.reveal.org about the ICoC).  Thankfully, my stay wasn't long thanks to a Rev. Steve, and an Ex-member named Susan.
       Now that I recieved Jesus into my life, I have peace I never felt while i was Catholic.  Not that the RCC has evil demons that I can sense, of course not, but this peace hasn't originated from my home Baptist church, RCC, or any religion, but this peace came from Jesus when He say:

24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24

       I no longer repent because I have to (or else!), but because I WANT TO.  Now that's freedom!
       The problem with Religion is that in essence, you have to earn, work your way to Salvation; the RCC is no exception.  We can talk about Mary, the Saints, and all the rest, and those things are important too, but not as important as this.
       If you want to talk about Salvation with me, than I am more than willing to do it, I just want to share my testamony.  The reason the protestants and Evangelicals have a bit of a trouble with the RCC is because, the RCC doctrines are outside of Scripture, and it even controdicts.  You said that people say that RCC is Pagan; as a former Catholic, I know exactly what you are saying.  I'm not saying anything yet, but what if it is?  To know for sure, We have to search the scriptures.

Ps.  If you want to study with me on the RCC, then I will be happy to share some verses, and you can do that too, but we must go through them one-by-one.  Also, I think first, Salvation must be discussed but its up to you.

Agur

By the way Tibby, go ahead and look into other sites the maker has.  You will see things that are clearly insults than Jokes.

To Agur3046:
I really liked what you said about the Catholic Church.
After years of learning the real truth about that religion,
(which I would be happy to go into if someone wanted),
the one thing that God showed me that is important above all
the rest is: though this may be the most false religion on the face of the earth, the people who are in it are not the religion.
God hates all "religion", but He loves the people. And any who truly seek Him, He will guide to Himself.
Thank you again for your words.

If you prayed to Mary, then you where not in the Catholic Church, but friend. You were either young and confused, or lied to. I’ve tried to protestant thing. You know what turned me off. What turned me off was when people said “Well, you know, I don’t believe in praying to marry” or “Well, you know, I don’t believe the pope is incapable of sin.” Guess what, me neither! If you are going to attack fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, at least have the respect enough to get your fact straight. Another thing that turned me off was how there aren’t may, if any, Catholic groups that attack Protestants like Chick Publication and Missions For Catholics. While the protestants are busy Bashing Catholics, most Catholics just ignore them and continue to do the work of the lord. When I start bashing Baptist, as I have a habit of doing with my young zeal, my Catholic Brethren will tell me I need to be gentle, they are still my brothers in Christ. I get that every time. If a Protestant starts bashing Catholics and mocking them and making jokes, the other protestants will cheer him on. Now, I don’t see how this is a Christian attitude.

These things are not what made me go Catholic. I’d be a fool to use the attitudes of a few zealous nuts sway my decision to change my Denomination, but let me tell you, when it came right down to it, these things do not help the Protestant case. Why are the protestants are more then willing to bash Catholic in large groups, and the Catholics, after taking this garage all there lives, kindly as me to be nice to my brothers in Christ. This greatly impresses me. If someone attacks us, our common reaction is to fight back, but they do not. They can twist fact against the Protestant church just as the Protestants do to them, but do they? No.

You where a young child when you left the RCC, like I was. You, like myself, didn’t fully understand how the Church worked. Most Grown men don’t understand how the Church is (Cardinal Law and Jack Chick to name two).

I have a testimony to share with you as well, my friend. I rejoined the Catholic Church because I started reading the writings of the early Church fathers. Everyone told me “no, no, they where all heretics” well, I figured, they compiled the bible, so if they were heretic, we have problems! As I read them, I began to understand WHY everyone told me they where “heretics.” Why? Because they followed that can best be described as Catholicism. No, the word and the definition wasn’t existent in those days, but they where more like the RCC then anything the protestants have and nearly everything the Catholics do is based on things done in those days. More protestant lies, more twisting of the facts to harm the Catholics.

Dear Tibby

       |'m sorry for the wait, my computer was down and I ahd school work to deal with.  
       I haven't been percecuted or ridiculed as a Catholic, but you have and for that, as a protestant, I apologize on the behalf of my church.  I do know what you mean by Protestants always on the offensive and Catholics on the defense.  My mom (a Catholic) tells me, "You guys always protests, so thats why you are all protestants."  Hard to prove that we are peace-lovers when we are the ones persuing but let me emphasis that word, Persue.
       Many I admit will bash Catholics and I had to rebuke one I remember.  However, there are those who do not have a spirit of hate in them and i think thats probably half of those who you met in yur lifetime.  the reason why we persue Catholics are two reasons - Bible and Salvation.  There are many problems that we see in RCC and among them you know already: Praying to Mary and the saints, Statue obessiance.  All those we don't see in Scripture and the Catholic Church teaches them.  So naturally, as believers in scripture, we do have to clear things up because one, they are errors anyways and two, God hates them (Titus 1:9).  The next Problem is more serious, here is why I'm persuing you.
       Believe it or not, there are only two ways to get saved in this world; one either by following the Law, or two by Faith Alone.  This immediately sets Biblical Judaism (completed in Christianity) apart from all Religions because all of them depends on the believers will to stay faithful.  Now how do you stay faithful?  Works: by good deeds and or by obedience to the Law.  God does justify the righteous but the problem is, they have to be perfectly righteous to enter the Kingdom.  Therefore, if they didn't obey or they sinned, they are separeted from God because of His Holiness and the deed they committed becomes a debt that has to be paid.  Now you as a former Protestant, if you really did believe (trust) in Jesus alone for your salvation, you are saved and still saved - i'll see you in heaven.  The problem is, you will be sharing the deadly error to everyone you share, even to convince other protestants that they too will spread poison.  
       You might say, "Don't Catholics believe in Jesus?"  Yes they do, and they are one of the only ones to believe in the Trinity.  The problem is did they really trust Jesus alone for their salvation?  They can follow Christ to death, but that's no different from all religions trying to make their way to God by the Law.  They might pray, "Jesus Save me," but they are the ones Saving themselves and not leaning on the finished work of Christ - His sacrifice for Sin.  Like all in religions, some will try to outweight their evil deeds by the good they do.  Sadly, they don't know that although they are doing everything right, it is their sin that is keeping them from God.  They will say, "God is forgiving."  The problem is, the sins still has to be paid for; God is forgiving, but like the Old Testament Saints, they will not reach God until their sins are paid for, so all they can do is to cover (Atone) it by sacrifices (OT Saints are saved by the way because they saw through the sacrifices and trusted God alone Psalms 16:10).  In consenquence, they never were saved because Sin has to be paid for.
     
I'm really sorry for the length of this work, but I want to inform you of it, not to justify Catholic bashing but to give you the reasons why we are the ones hunting.

agur  

       Sorry, I think the Word Atone, is for the saved.  I think Spiritually, when there is a sacrifice, the sinner is forgiven but the sin is paid for by a spottless Lamb or Goat.  However, a better sacrifice is a broken heart (Psalm 51).  
       Why Animal Sacrifices then?  They are done out of faith just as Abel has done.  If it were by works, Cain would have been justified because look at his heart, it showed by the works of his hand.  Abel however, simply had a burnt offering; nothing hard about it, not like Cains.  If you remember Adam and Eve how God killed an Animal to cover the couples nakedness, then wow, now thats Faith!

agur

You attack Catholics because you want someone to attack. We tell you the truth, and you guys don’t listen! You think you know more about the Catholic Beliefs then Catholics do. I think I’d know a little bit more about Catholics then most Non-Catholics, thank you very much! Your right, we don’t see Praying to Mary or idolizing the likeness of saints in the bible, and that is precisely why Catholics don’t do that sort of thing!

95% of all ex-Catholics didn’t know a think about the Catechism. They where just raised Catholics as kids, riding there Parents coat tails.  They didn’t know what the Catholics believed, in truth, until some Protestant told them a few twisted facts about the Catholic “worshiping” saints, and because they spent most of there time sleeping in church, they don’t know who to defend it, and leave the Church. I do not pray to Mary, I never have, and I have never worshiped a saint. I worship Jesus alone, as do the rest of the Catholics I know.

Now, as for the rest of your stuff, all I have to say is WHAT!? What does that have to do with anything? We all know how to be saved, we all read the bible! And that second post… Well, you complete lost me with that one. I don’t recall God killing animals and clothing Adam and Eve with them, and I don’t see the relevance of Animal sacrificing with all this.

And to think you said you read your bible.  Tisk tisk, typical of a catholic really.  No we all don't know how to be saved.  I have NEVER heard a sermon in a catholic church that said anything about salvation.  That's another story though.  

Do tell tibby, how does one became saved?  You can't even seem to remember the first chapters of Genisis.  If you can't see the significance of animal sacrifice in the OT what do you get?
 
 

Very good. A Cookie for The King James Kid. Aren’t you the smart little Baptist. :P Yes, Jason, we know about Geneses, we know about Animal Sacrifices.

The thing I fail to see is why this is relevant to the current topic. I never said the bible doesn’t have Animal Scarifies in it, I just don't see why he brought it up. We are talking about NT salvation, Jason, not OT Traditions.

How does one become Saved, uh? This is a detailed topic. Matthew says he who stands firm in persecuted will be saved (Matthew chapters 10 & 24). Mark says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16). In Act, they say they believe Grace saves us (Acts 15), and then later says All you must do in believe in Jesus(Acts 16). In Romans, it states that we are to confesses with our physical selves and believe in our hearts to be saved (Romans 10). Corinthians says hold on to the gospel saves us (1 Cor 15). I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. I’m going to just stick with that the bibles says on this.

Tell me Tib's, it sounds like you are unsure of what saves us.  You say you will stick to the bible on this one.  It sounds like you are confused and unable to put "line upon line, precept upon precept..rightly dividing the word of Truth".  Are you unable currently to make all those pieces together and get an answer.  If I did not know the bible at all it sounds like you are claiming there is many a way to heaven.

If you can't see the significance of the OT to the NT then we have a problem.  What do you think the OT is for then?

Nevermind, Jason.

Dear Tibby:

"You attack Catholics because you want someone to attack. We tell you the truth, and you guys don’t listen! You think you know more about the Catholic Beliefs then Catholics do. I think I’d know a little bit more about Catholics then most Non-Catholics, thank you very much! Your right, we don’t see Praying to Mary or idolizing the likeness of saints in the bible, and that is precisely why Catholics don’t do that sort of thing!"

       I'm suprised by your comments; you really think that were just out there to hack at your faith?  I wouldn't be suprized that a few view we simply exist to feed off of the pain of loyal but unsuspecting catholics.  Thats ok, i think everybody believe so much in their faith/religion that they tend to feel any opposition/outreach is an attack by Satan.  Keep in mind however that we too feel the same with ours but both sides should open up.  Here's why the Gospel cannot be ignored:

6   I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7   Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8   But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9   As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1:6-9

       If we we're out there only to attack either out of pleasure or hatred, we'd only focus on the controversies, the qweerness, and the illogicals of the RCC; the Bible would be just another tool for us.  
      For me, I rarely bring up the history because that is not what's important.  I do however talk about RCC doctrines, but I let the person choose if thye don't want to talk about Salvation.

      Now about Salvation, if you want to go through the Bible with me like the Bereans, then I perfer an even exchange of verses.  That means if I give you a verse, your job is to answer that verse, and when you are done, you can give me a verse in return.  For a topic such as this, the Bible would be very clear on what it really says so we definity need to do this.

God bless

agur

No, not JUST to, I think there are people who honestly believe what they are told about Catholics, and have a desire to “save” us. There heart is in the right place, but there facts are all wrong. Then there ARE others, who just want to attack Catholics.

Also, I don’t see Catholicsism as a “faith” I see it as a Christian rite of sorts, how we interpret the bible. I know you didn’t mean it like that, but I just wanted to make that clear, because some LOVE to argue over Semitics.


Again, you are posting things and not explaining the relevance. I know the Gospel can not be ignored, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?


And I would try to explain all of this to you, and show it that it isn’t controversial, the queer, or illogical. If you would be willing to listen, of course.


But you cannot talk about the RCC Doctrines and avoid the history that started them.


Sounds like fun. But define “Answer” the verse, first. You want our interpretation? And am I to pick random verses about Salvation, or one that rebuttals the one you posted, and/or backs my interpretation up?

I left the Roman Catholic Church less then two years ago.  I was born into a RC family and about two years ago went through the 6 month RCIA program for confirmation; I dropped out when I decided to follow Jesus instead.  Afterwards I did much reading on Catholicism with the help of a priest from DeSalles University, a Roman Catholic college for seminarians.  I was shocked at what I learned, but not  surprised.

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK -- THESE ARE FACTS THAT CAN BE SUBSTANTIATED, I LOOKED THEM UP, WAS TAUGHT THEM BY RCC and can refute all of them.


Here are some of the things that got me questioning the Roman Catholic faith, to which no priest could answer.  

Absolution, um, the Bible is clear, God alone forgives sin, which the RC do not deny, yet the absolution comes through the priest, you can not go direct.  Yet the BIble is clear "-In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: (Col 1:14)"

Confession -- some sins can only be forgiven by the local bishop or even the bishop of the Arch Dioceses. Example, until 1998, our parish was not allow to forgive the sin of abortion.  It could only be done by the local bishop, nobody else.  So, my question then was this.  Suppose a young woman has an abortion and truly realises her sin, repents and wants forgiveness from God.  She comes to the parish and goes into the confesssional.  Makes the sign of the cross and recites the words used to address the priest. Then she asks forgivness for her abortion, to bad.  She would be told that she needs to come back when the bishop is in and that is on such-and-such a day.  So she leaves the church, distraught, and walks outside to get hit by a city bus, she dies right there.  Where does she go?  To heaven or hell?  According to the Catechism, and the priest that I spoke with, she goes to hell becuase she is unforgiven for her sin.

Unbaptised babies -- the priest teaching our class, his boss, and every priest I asked had one thing to say.  The babies would go to hell, but that we have to rely on the mercy of God to get them out.  

Why is is that the priest has the authority from God to give absolution for ones sins and not anyone else.  Answer from priest.  Because the priest has Christ in them.  Reply: so when I receive communion on Sunday I can turn to the person behind me and forgive them sin.  Priests reply, no I can not.   Then why do I need communion every Sunday?  Because we sin during the week and we need to come back to God.  Reply: But I thought then when we accept Christ into our heart He is there, and does not leave, so why do I need to have Him come back in every week?  Answer from priest -- don't you want Christ in you every week?  (or something similar)

Transubstansiation -- the wafer is turned into Christ.  My reply -- so when mass is finished you lock up Christ in the tabernacle until the next mass?  Priest -- No, it is your belief and faith that turns the wafer to Christ.  Reply -- but if I already believe in Christ why do I need to take a wafer and turn it into Christ?

Mary -- not co-redeemer.  Vatican is pushing this.  Jesus is the redeemer, our advocate to God.  He will not deny those that do not deny Him.  He never said that we can count on His earthly mother too.  Mary mother of God -- WOW!  God was and always is, not possible for a human to be the mother of the living God.  Mother of Jesus, yes, but when a woman tried to exhalt Mary what does Jesus say to her statement?  She says, blessed is the womb that bore you and blesses are the papst that gave you suck.  Jesus says, rather blessed is the person that hears the word of God and keeps it.  He could have said that, yes you are right and the Father sent me (Jesus) and her (Mary) so that all sins can be forgiven. He could have gone on to say that my mother is also one to believe in for eternal life.  So when Jesus says (Jn 14:6) I am the way the truth and the light, for no man cometh unto the Father but by Me, did He lie?  God forbid!!  

Christmass -- Pagan holiday given us by Constantine of Rome.  The early church fathers were honoring January 6 as the birth of Christ, even though that time of year was impossible for his birth.  Constantine thought himself the highest priest (Pontificuss Maximus) and forced the Church and the pagans to celebrate their gods on December 25th.  To this day the pope is often called the pontiff.  

Halloween -- um, all saints day, right?  We are all saints and why do we need to honor dead people.  When Jesus said let the dead bury their dead He was not referring to corpses burying corpses.  He said let the dead (non-believers) bury their dead.  It just so happens that this day is the highest and most important day of the satanic year.  And like christmass, some priests will tell you that the early church tried to usurp the local pagan traditions with the church.  Jesus preached the word of God, God does not change today, yesterday or tomorrow.  When people did not want to hear what Christ had to say He never altered the truth or God's word to try and entice people to His message.  You accept it or you don't.  Paul, the apostle was all things to all people in order to bring them to the message of Jesus, but He did not alter scripture or the message of the cross to convert the Greeks or the Romans.  Apollos used the Old Testament alone to convert skeptical jews, because the New Testament had not yet been written.

1754 cannon laws of the RCC.  Once a law they will not remove it ever.  Even the law that gives the pope the right to practice anethmas.  

Vicar of Christ -- an offical title of the pope.  All belivers of Christ are ambassadors, we die to our will and live for the will of God.  The offical catechism of the RCC is that all catholics MUST surrender their thoughts and minds to the pope -- look it up, I did. This means you can not follow Jesus, but the pope only. If one remains a catholic and does not agree with all of their rules, this by definition is hypocritical since the RCC insists all catholics strictly adhere to their teachings and their teachings alone.  Again, this is all in the catechism of the RCC.

Holy Father -- is God in heaven and for anyone to allow themselves to be called this is risking blasphemey! Holy Father is mentioned once in the Bible and it most certainly refers to God alone.  Look it up, I did.  The apostle Peter was so humbled that he insisted on being crucified upside down because he was not worthy to even be crucified being upright like the Lord God.  Peter was given the keys to heaven. Peter and the apostles rose people from the dead, no pope has ever done that.

Infallible -- the pope, when speaking from chair of Peter, OR all the bishops of Rome, when acting united (called the _oly see) are infallabile.  Yet this was often argued by popes, and many popes have reversed an infallabile rule given by their predecessor.  Does God make mistakes?

The apostle Paul considered all of his earthly possesions as dung. The pope has garments worth more then one million dollars.  Paul worked to support his ministry and the fellows that walked with him.  

Annulment -- When you are married the priest will recite from the Bible and often say that phrase they nullify with annulments.  Let no man seperate what God has joined.  I wanna know how they do it?  They have a perfectly reasonable explination.  Suppose two people get married and the man becomes a wife beater, nasty nasty stuff.  The woman can therefore get an annulment like it never happened (the kids are now illegitamate).  Yet the Bible is clear on this, if one leaves then they cause the other to sin.  That is if they are both believers.  No wife beater is a believer of Christ.  So she can leave, but she is still married and can not marry again.  Now, it goes one step further.  I can walk into a RCC and announce  I want an annullment, since I was married in a RCC, and myh reason only has to be that I had expectations that my wife did not meet.  This was explained to me by a RCC priest who was also a church lawyer, he knew church law.  I can state that when I married my wife I fully expected that after 10 years of marriage we would own our own business, and we don't.  So I want a divorce.  With much effort on the part of the church for me to reconsider, they would still have to grant the annulment according to their law.  My wife doesn't even have to know about my expectations.  Basically, you can get a divorce for what ever reason you like and the RCC permits and therefore teaches sin.

I just provided months worth of research and knowledge.  All is true and can be substantiated, look it up.  Get a copy of the Official Roman Catholic Catechism and the law of cannon.  You will be surprised.  

LinuxGeek

Dear Tibby

       I am willing to hear from your side.  I must however tell you that I am unwilling to read any book UNLESS the challenger does his/her part as well.
       As for the verse in Galatians, I posted that because thats the one Gospel, (yours or mine) that we must ber ready to aid away  If any believes in a gospel that is not taught by the Apostles, it is likely, the believer of such a gospel is not saved.  Galatians makes it clear that such a gospel brought by someone is accursed.  If mine gospel is false, I expect you to reach me because after all, maybe my gospel is an advocation to lawlessness.  However, if we are right about yours, then your Gospel is like all other religions that it tries to reach a Holy God by Works.
        The answering of verses can be seen as giving your opinion, but your opinion must have good reason behind it.

Ps.  You want to start off or let me fire first?  If you dom gio ahead and post a verse.

I'll be back next week - God Bless

agur

Linuxgeek?  Can I just say...AAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMEEENNNNNNN!!!!!

Good stuff, I’ll reply later today when I have more time. I just want to point out that you said the Church Fathers did this, or the Church Fathers did that, you forgot to mention the Church fathers believe in Infant Baptist and Transubstansiation. The Church Fathers partook in Communion every time they met.

You just provided months worth of research and knowledge, so I’m going be fair and at least give you an afternoons worth of replies. In the mean time, if you would like these answers from some wise Catholic Scholars (as oppose to a smart mouth college student), check out the ETWN website:

http://www.ewtn.com/

Click on “Catholic Q&A” and search for a topic, or then ask new question. It looks like most of there mail boxes are full right now, but check back in a little bit. You can just copy and paste what you typed here on to them. These guys are some of best apologist, and they can easier help you where the Priest failed. Keep in mind these are ROMAN Catholics. I know where you are, my Fatehr found his self in one such place, the Preist not able to answer his question. He made the mistake of leaving as well, and stayed gone for most of his life.

A still do not see what all that about Gospel does for the topic at hand...

I'll post the verse later today.

Tibby,

The most important goal we can strive for is our salvation; Jesus said He is the way and any that believe in Him are saved.  This is important.

As for scholars I don't think asking Roman Catholic scholars about Roman Catholicism will do me any good.  They can substantiate everything I listed as most of it comes from the modern day Catholics catechism.  However they will refute that the pope is fallable when speaking from the chair, so, as Jesus did, I too leave anyone who believes something other then the word of God to themselves.  Either you accept it or you don't, it really is that simple. I don't need to ask the scholars because I read the Bible, I pray to God and He is not a liar.  All who seek shall find.

Many people are discontent with the RCC because of the points I mentioned; they are not in scripture and it certainly appears that the RCC is teaching false scripture with the exhalting of Mary, the Saints and their own doctrine.

Brother/Sister  -- I truly hope that one day you leave the RCC, but what is more important is that you believe in Jesus and do follow His commands.  

LinuxGeek

lol, why is it everyone always says “Salvation is the most important thing” before starting in on Catholics? Everyone says “Salvation is the most important thing” seem to focus more on attacking the Catholics church, not saving the Catholic Church. That is one of the reason I left  Protestantism. If I went into a room full of Protestant, and bashed Catholics, I am cheered on, when I mention something I don’t like about Protestants in a harsh manor, my Catholic brothers shush me, and remind me they are still the Church, still Christians. I have a habit of ranting about what I find to be injustice in the world. I’ve been told many times by Catholics, priest and layman a like, I am to harsh on Protestants, and that I should be kinder to my brothers. I have never ONCE, not even ONCE, heard any Protestant, Pastor, Preacher, or parishioner, tell someone to stop attacking Catholics.

Oh, and please stop saying ALL of those things are in the Catechism, you have several things that aren’t on that list of the Roman Catechism. A lot of it isn’t, in fact. I just double checked.

The Reason I directed you to the Catholic Scholars is because you said:


Final note: It’s Brother. and I’m not Roman Catholic. I never said I was ROMAN Catholic, you assumed as such. I’m going to post my denomination in my sig some day. There are other types of Catholic out there (not counting the Independent Nuts). Most of which do not believe in the Mary Doctrine, or Papal Infallible.

Tibby

I am sorry, I have no way of knowing if you are male or female with the handle Tibby.  I did not want to assume yet I wronged when I assumed you were in the RCC.  However you still seem very bitter and I am not going to debate; I am not out to attack Roman Catholics.  I do want to reply to some of your information as it may lead others to the wrong impression of non Catholics, as catholics are believers.


Peace be with you brother, I too am a brother and we are all supposed to be one in the body of Christ.  Let's try and fulfill that.
LinuxGeek

Honestly, if someone is bitter, why do people think pointing it out is going to do anything but stir it up?

You clearly don’t know as much as you think you do about the Catechism. Catholics and the Catechism do acknowledge all other form of Christianity. Baptist, Methodist, Non-denominational alike. Clearly, you DO need to visit a few Catholic Scholars, maybe the teachers could correct misconceptions like this one you have about the church you claim to have studied so thoroughly.

Yes, I understand about the name. Not upset about that. It isn’t the misinformation everyone spreads on Catholics I don’t like.

Tibby,
I sympathize with your plight. Jesus talked in parables specifically for those He chose. So YES, the bible can be confusing! That's why there are so many disputes on this forum and why there are so many denominations. Sometimes I wished He had just SPELLED IT OUT in kndergartnen terms but I know he coudn't do that because people would have tried to prove Him wrong. So Jesus is relying on the Holy Spirit in each of us to interpret the bible according to His meaning.

For me, the best way to do that is to know that EVERYTHING in the bible HAS to agree. There are no contradictions. So if i see what looks like a contradiction then I know i'm not understanding it correctly. So then I try to put it all together to come up with a meaning that doesn't contradict anything else in the bible. As far as salvation goes, the two most specific comments Jesus made about it are 1. that we have to be born with water and the spirit, and 2. that we have to KNOW Him. He refers to those 2 comments all throughout the gospel but those are the most succinct. Luke is right when he says we have to be baptized with water, but according to Jesus, we also have to be baptized by the spririt. In Romans, Paul refers to some people who had been baptized with water but had not yet been baptized by the spirit. John the Baptist also makes reference to the fact that being baptized with water and baptized with the spirit are 2 separate acts.  Jesus also says about the ones He chose that, "No one can snatch them out of my hands." That means once saved, always saved. Jesus says many times that none of us is good enough to get into heaven which is why knowing Him is the only way. But since most of us don't feel worthy of this free gift (which we aren't), we feel we have to earn our way. that is a human tendency that is not endorsed b Christ. I hope this helps.

Tibby,

I won't continue on this with you but for the ones who do not know the truth of Roman Catholicism I will write this much;

What I wrote is based solidly on the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, and yes they do acknowledge other religions but they CLEARLY claim that there is NO salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church.  The pope just a few years ago kissed the Quaran in public, this is certainly an acknowledgement of Islam.

While I state truth you try and refute with empty words for lack of knowledge.  I assure anyone reading, I do not have misconceptions about the RCC.  The Bible is our source of scripture and the Bible is very clear in John 3:16 anyone believing in Christ shall have eternal life, no demoniation required.

Your crusade to defend Roman Catholics is admirable, I am not out to attack them.  I have never said there is no salvation in the RCC.  I suspect you will retort to this post, but unless you can cite scripture to prove your claim, unless you can use the Catechism to refute what I have said then I assert it is you who have the misconceptions and you should turn away from Roman Catholic scholars.

LinuxGeek

You are the one who posted here. No one MADE you post anything. If you don't want to talk about this, just say so, but keep in mind, you posted here under your own free will. I didn’t ask you to come, on one did. I don’t think anyone knew your stand on the catholic church before you posted your little “non-attack.” Do you honestly think you are the only person who has even owned/read a copy of the Catechism? You asked me in your first post to get a read a copy of the Catecish. Hey, here’s a thought, maybe, as someone who has been studying Catholicism for the past yea around, I have a copy? You are talking to a Catholic, and you are trying to past your self off like you know more about what he believes then he does. Think about that for a second. Better yet, maybe you should give it “months worth” of thinking. You will be surprised.  

I think what we're looking for here, is objectivity. The only way we can be objective about the Catholic church is no being so defensive of it. As Linuxgeek said, there is salvation in Catholic church but i do not believe it is as much as in the evangelical free churchs, for example. There are things wrong with the E-free church also, but the basic doctrine is that you have to be born again with water and the spirit to even become a MEMBER of the E-free church. That doctrine is much more in line with Christ's words than the teachings of the catholic church. I go to an E-Free church but am not offended if it is criticized because my church is Christ inside of me. I realize that a church is as corrupt as the human beings in it. As long as we worship Christ, it is much easier to be objective about denominations.

Heidi- How can anyone, even Roman Catholics, believe there is such a think as Lesser salvation? Now, different church have different degrees of truth to them, that is for sure. But Salvation is salvation.

Petro- Please elaborate on how I do not uphold the beliefs of  my denomination. I have said many time the group I belong to, so please, find one thing I disagree with them on. As for as I know (and I think I’d know a little bit more about my beliefs then you) I agree with the CEC’s system whole heartedly.

Also, please explain what you mean by “associations”

I really don't know how a church can believe in lesser salvation. I do believe. however, that churches can misunderstand salvation. That phrase in Romans called "The Believers' Freedom" where Paul says "Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial" totally sums up salvation. In other words, we, as believers, can do ANYTHING we want to and we're forgiven. We can lie, cheat, steal, rob,etc., and we are forgiven. BUT is it beneficial? Who does it help and who does it hurt? Since we have accepted the forgiveness from Christ, we are forgiven for whatever "law" we break. So we are no longer bound by the law. But, now out of gratitude and the Holy Spirit residing is us, we WANT to obey the law because it brings us closer to God. It is complete and total freedom which then gives us the ability to do the right thing.  The love and mercy He gives us when we admit our sins gives us the impetus to want more of it.

As I said previously, some people don't feel they deserve this free gift of salvation (which we really dont') and feel like they have to "earn" their way. They have not totally accepted and felt the free gift so they feel that they have to work their way toward heaven. This is where church doctrines can differ. But scripture tells us otherwise and so does logic and reason. God's love is UNCONDITIONAL and lasting. Otherwise, Pauls words in the believers' freedom would be a lie. Also, Christ's death on the cross would have been for nothing if we could earn our way. We wouldn't have needed His death. When we see just how riddled with sin we all are, we would realize that earning our way is impossible, which Chirst affirms.

It is clear to me you disagree with the official Roman Catholic dogma, and after having posted the official teaching by the Pope (Pius IX), if you believ this doigma, it is grudgingly.

As a member of this organization you are to believe this things without question, and herein you are questioning the teaching.

You deny being catholic now, but you claimed to be a catholic originally when you started posting herein, it was when you stated you were about to graduate from high school and were enrolling in some kind of christian college, if my mind serves me right.

But it matters little to me, american catholics have always been this way, they believe what they want to believe, and still refer to themselves as catholics.





marriage, and family pressure,m I am sure there are other reasons.


Petro

Nah, you are a little confused. That is ok, being an expert of Tibby’s personal life isn’t a requirement for being a poster on the Board. ;D I am Catholic now, a member of the Convergence movement. I was raised in a Home that didn’t have Catholic biases (like so many other protestant homes), because most of my extended Family lives in Southern Louisiana, if you catch my drift. Spent most of my life in Protestantism, as my father left the Catholic Church as a young man because the Priests where not able to answer some of the major questions he had (how we ended up back in Catholicism, long story). As I have said before, the Roman Catholic Church only makes up a small number of the Catholic groups. There is the Polish National, there are several different Eastern Orthodox groups, My group, etc, etc. You might be surprised at how many rites there are, I know I was. Anyways, for the most part, Mary Doctrine is Roman only, most other rites don’t follow it, making that a large number of Catholics world wide. My point is, believing Mary is sinless isn’t a prerequisite for being Catholic.

Now you know… the rest of the story.

I’m a freshman at a State University, not Christian College. Good school, but with no official Religious affiliation.

As for Marriage, I’m currently in a long term relationship with a girl whose parents are Super-Baptists. IF, in the distant future, I do marry her, it will be less then peaceful. That goes for most of the girls in my area, as we are in the bucket of the bible belt, and 95% of all Christians are Baptist. So pressure for/from Marriage or Courtship isn’t the reason for being Catholic. As for Family, my father and I came to the same conclusion mutually about this, he would never push things on us. Other reason, I don’t see what they might be. We have one Roman Catholic Church in town, and countless Baptist Churches. The two largest Churches are Baptist, and anyone who is anyone in this town is a member of one of the two.

I married a born again Christian who has, like me,  no particular domination affiliation. I cannot tell you how blessed our marriage is. Because Christ rules us, rather than a church, we can talk objectively about all churches and go to any of them as we so choose. I know so many people who have problems in their relationships because one's a Lutheran and the other is a Catholic, or one's a Baptist, and the other is a Lutheran. These people have even said they have different RELIGIONS. WHEN DOES CHRIST TAKE PRECENDENCE OVER A DENOMINATION? These people worship the church DOCTRINES before they worship Christ. That is idol worship. Who cares what church a person attends as long as it is Christ He has on the throne of the universe? I believe that if there is too much attachment to a denomination, then there is idol worship going on.

Thank you Heidi. It isn’t a thing of following “the church” blinding with most people. It is a Thing of what you believe. If Denominations don’t matter, lets all go Catholic! Hey, lets become Jehovah’s Witness instead! At least for me, it is about what I believe. It just so happens what I have come to believe through study, prayer, and meditation is what my current Denomination also believes. So, it seems only natural, if I believe what they believe, I should join up! No man is an island, and I think joining with people who believe like you do on an international level will only help to further your walk. And THAT is where Denominations come in. Denominations are here for US, we are not hear to serve the denomination. We are hear to serve God, and it just seems to me that is easier to do with the resources of a large international group backing you.

I personally don't adhere to any one denomination which is why my husband and i go to different churches depending on what we want to hear. I see problems in every denomination, some more than others. All i want to do is go to church to worship Christ, take communion, enjoy fellowship and go to bible study. I don't even like sermons because I've heard too many that are way off the mark. That's why I enjoy bible studies where we can scrutinize scripture, hear different interpretations of scripture, ask questions and discuss. that's where i learn.

That's great heidi. :)

We already knew that cause like I saifd you shared that;


What new wind of doctrines does this movement teach, that brings who together at the point??   And what is the point??

Do you accept the idea the pope is infallible??

That Mary is a co-redemptress intercessor??

That she is to be worshipped??

That you must receive the seven sacraments in order to be saved??

Must wear  a scapular?

Pray the Rosary??

If the answer is yes to all of the above, your still a Roman Catholic, stop kidding yourself..

It is obvious to me, althought you do not like the "immaculate concepcion dogma" of Mary, you still believe in it..or have you not swallowed the pill.....am I wrong?

Blessings,
Petro





 

Someone didn't think about what they were writing:

That would mean only married priests were saved.  ::)

Just checking



The whole point is they are not bringing any “new wind” we are simplify using all that we believe to be the way things should be in one place. This is a article written by of of the leaders of the 2 Convergence churches:

http://www.theceec.org/11convergence.html



What is the point of any Church? To Worship God and equip the saints to do the work of the Load. Sorry for the text book answer, but what would you like me to say?



The CEC does not, I however, and still praying over the matter. Great arguments are made both for and against.



No.



I know what you THINK you the Catholics believe, but no one “worships” Mary. No.



No. They are the outward signs that follow salvation.



Say what? No. Now, if I was a Monk whose order required it, yes.



No.



I answered no to all. If I had answer yes, Catholics would consider me to be a cult member, not a Catholic. You do not know what I believe. You do not know what Catholics Believe. Stop kidding your self.



Yes, you are wrong. Sorry.


Later,
Chris

tibby,



I understand why you are running to and fro, you don't even understand this is an official teaching of the Catholic church, have you ever read the Glories of Mary by St.
Ligouri,

 http://praiseofglory.com/redemptorist/gloriesbilly.htm

His writings are considered infallible, by this Roman Catholic saint, he writes of her, that she is not only an Advocate and Mediator, but actually teaches that shge is more merciful than our blessed Lord Himself;

"He who is under the protection of Mary will be saved; he who is not will be lost.............O immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection, and therfore we have recourse , to thee alone, and we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil.............Thou (Mary) art (emphasis mine) my only hope,...........Lady in heaven we have but one advocate, and is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation.........My queen and my Advocate with thy Son, whom I dare not approach..


In the Pope's Encyclical dtd 1891, as published in the Tablet, October 10, 1891 (quoted in The Claims of Rome, p.61)

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure  of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ.  Thus no man goeth to the father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother."

Your answer shows me you don't know what your Catholic church's official teachings are, but that is great, I pray that you will consider these teachings and see if you can reconcile them to the Word of God.

Member by association, do you understand it now??

For sure you can believe the teachings of scripture, but what value is it to hold to teachings of church who teaches things that are not even found in scripture??

[quoter]tibby said;
I answered no to all. If I had answer yes, Catholics would consider me to be a cult member, not a Catholic. You do not know what I believe. You do not know what Catholics Believe. Stop kidding your self.

Well, thats great, I guess you just like the name catholic.

Let me asure you this doesn't make anyone a Christian either.



Yes, you are wrong. Sorry.

So the pill was hard to swallow, but you swallowed it anyhow??

So you believe in the immaculate conception, what about the Assumption of Mary proclaimed by pope pius XII in 1950?


Later,
Petro

ebia,

yea, you didn't think, RCC priest are married to the church, and nuns to the pope, eeh!! The pope is Christ veiled in the flesh, according to official church teaching,

"The pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself , hidden under the veil of the flesh.  Does the pope speak?  It is Jesus Christ that speaks .  Does the pope accord a favor or pronounce an anathema?  It is Jesus Christ who pronounces the anathema or accords the favor. (Protestant Alliance Magazine, March 1922)

Ref: "Heresies Exposed" p.141, Roman Catholicism compiled by Wm C Irvine and introduction by Louis T. Talbot,
Loizeaux Brother, Bible Truth Depot 19 West 21st Street, New York, 10, N.Y.

I bet tibby didn't know this either??



That would mean only married priests were saved.  ::)

That would mean only married priests were saved.  ::)

listen, ole girl...

Nevetheless this is what the church teaches,

The Roman Catholic church teaches one must receive the seven sacraments in order to go to heaven, it begins with  "baptism" and ends"extreme unction or  holy unction", which is the final blessing delivered by a priest to a terminally ill or dieing person, hopefully prior to death, and one still goes to purgatory, one wonders what the difference is since, even when one dies in sin, without receiving this the church still considers the soul of the departed to go to purgatory, where je can have his sins expiated.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05716a.htm

More learnin will make you smert...........or smart, maybe.

You see, I was born and raised as a devout roman catholic, praise God He brought me out of this house of bondage.

Petro

ebia,

yea, you didn't think, RCC priest are married to the church, and nuns to the pope, eeh!! The pope is Christ veiled in the flesh, according to official church teaching,

"The pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself , hidden under the veil of the flesh.  Does the pope speak?  It is Jesus Christ that speaks .  Does the pope accord a favor or pronounce an anathema?  It is Jesus Christ who pronounces the anathema or accords the favor. (Protestant Alliance Magazine, March 1922)

Ref: "Heresies Exposed" p.141, Roman Catholicism compiled by Wm C Irvine and introduction by Louis T. Talbot,
Loizeaux Brother, Bible Truth Depot 19 West 21st Street, New York, 10, N.Y.

I bet tibby didn't know this either??



That would mean only married priests were saved.  ::)

That would mean only married priests were saved.  ::)

listen, ole girl...

Nevetheless this is what the church teaches,

The Roman Catholic church teaches one must receive the seven sacraments in order to go to heaven, it begins with  "baptism" and ends"extreme unction or  holy unction", which is the final blessing delivered by a priest to a terminally ill or dieing person, hopefully prior to death, and one still goes to purgatory, one wonders what the difference is since, even when one dies in sin, without receiving this the church still considers the soul of the departed to go to purgatory, where he can have his sins expiated.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05716a.htm

More learnin will make you smert...........or smart, maybe.

You see, I was born and raised as a devout roman catholic, praise God He brought me out of this house of bondage.

Petro

wrong and wrong.  Priests aren't married to anyone (normally) otherwise it would not be possible to have married priests (unusual in the RCC, but they do exist).  Nuns are, of course brides of Christ (as are monks I believe) but Nuns aren't ordained.


No, the Pope is the vicar of Christ.  That is, he stands in place of Christ.  (Personally, I don't think he is that either - thats one of the reasons I'm not Catholic, but that's by-the-by)

That well known Catholic publication.

Why should Tibby want to know untrue things?  ???


That would mean only married priests were saved.  ::)

That would mean only married priests were saved.  ::)


I was having a laugh.  The short phrase you gave out of context clearly implies you have to go through all 7, which is clearly untrue.  Hardly anyone will experience all seven.
One should normally expect to go through at least three (baptism, confirmation and communion), maybe more.  Even those three are normative but not necessary.


Lots of Catholics are taught garbage, and lots are taught simplified versions of the official church teachings.  After all, any normal person couldn't wade through all the teachings of the RCC in a lifetime.  But just because you were taught the norm as though it was the rule, doesn't make it so.

ebia,

You'd argue with a possum........

Petro

Am I?  That would explain a lot.

If you want to waste my time like this, Petro, I can I leave this thread. Stop repeating the same garbage all over again. You have no idea what it is to be Catholic, yet you attack them like you know more about Catholics then the Pope. The Mary doesn’t make the Catholics, millions of Catholics all over the world show a strong distaste for the RCC Mary Doctrines. If you spent more like researching nad less time needlessly bashing, you might already know this.

Whither I say I’m for or against the Mary Doctrine, you attack me. When you assume I’m for it, you attack me. Now that I have explained to you that I feel the same way you do about the Mary Doctrine, you are STILL attacking me for my stand on the Mary Doctrine! What the devil is a matter with you? It doesn’t matter to you what I believe, you are going to attack me regardless because I use the word “catholic” to describe what I believe!

I guess i don't know why you're so defensive of the catholic church, Tibby and Ebia. There are things wrong with all denominations. The important thing is that no one can correct what's wrong if it's not admitted. You sound as if your very life is in the hands of the Catholics. I tend to be suspicious of such a strong attachment as yours.

Of course there are things wrong with all denominations. If I thought the RCC had everything right, I would join.

That doesn't mean I shouldn't defend it when the attacks are misguided or misinformed.

tibby,

Hoew could you believe the same thing I believe about Mary;

I asked you;


you answered;


Meaning yes you swallowed the pill, or yes I am wrong about you do not like the immaculate conception dogma??

You still left me with the impression, although you don't like the doctrine, you accept it as infallible teaching of the pope?

And beside you never answered what convergence catholicism is??

If you don't want to talk about it thats fine with me......cause if they are new teachings, I would have to ask more questions?   Like Who's new teachings and what is your authority??



Petro

ebia,

You haven't defended anything, you simply have posted your own opinions, and feelings.

There is a difference?  Or don't you know this.

Give us facts not personal opinions, they are worthless, when making points, unless you can prove them.


A possum?...........maybe you are. Only you know.

Petro

Heidi- How would you feal if I everyone started saying you believe Bill Clinton was the 3rd Adam, we all honestly beleived that you did? I'm guessing you would not like it too much. That is why we are so defencive of Catholicism. Well, Edia just liek to debat,e as he said, But this is why I defend it.

Petro- No, I don't beleive in all the mary garbage. I haven't seen any solid Apologetics for it. Most of the logic behind it is flawed, and shallow. It would take a much stronger argument for me to buy into such a thing. Like maybe a verse of the bible saying "Mary was sinnless" for example. ;)

I think this article, that I posted beofre, explains things much better then I ever could:

http://www.theceec.org/11convergence.html

The Convergance is just what it sounds like, the converging of  the streams of the Church. Maybe of the people who are in the movment found it like I did, while looking through information on the early Church. The Early Church had many elements to it, much of that has split into different streams, the rather young convergance movement is tryign to bring it all full circle. Is it of I God or of man? I'd say of God, and in my prayer life, I have heard nothing different. But this is still a young movement, only time will tell for sure. If it is of God, it will last, if not, I pray he tear it down soon, before any more are lead away from the truth. As for me, I beleive it is the work of God.

Why do you use the term catholic if you want nothing to do with Rome?

I and others have said this is what the RCC believes and you say no they don't.  Then you tell us you aren't a part of the RCC because you don't believe what they believe.  Make up your mind will you.

I never said I want nothing to do with Rome. I like them in general, just a few things about them bother me, things that bother me enough for me to find somewhere to go. I very much like  Rom, Even if I didn’t, there are many breeds of Catholics, Romans are the most Centralized and therefore, the most well known, but by no means the only ones. Unlike “fair and balanced,” the term “catholic” isn’t copyrighted. A large majority of the people who follow the liturgy are Catholic.

They do not worship Mary like you think. They do, however, say she is sinless from the time she was born. This is not to be found in the bible nor the early church fathers. Not even the Philosopher saints like St. Aquinas and St. Augustine have much to say about it! And it is rare those two are silent on an issue. Normally, if it is an issue the Catholic Church has/will tackle with, they cover it. So, it is a pretty safe bet Mary is a waste of time and catechismic paper. I don’t agree with there Mary Doctrine, but I don’t agree with all of you it qualifies as “worship.” More of an adoration like that you would hold for a Relative who did something great.

I can still argue the truth on a issue and not be a member of the Church. I’m not roman catholic, but many of the things attacked are things I believe. Aside from Mary and the Pope, most all of it is what I believe, and as someone who believes, I can say some people have It all wrong.

If you will read over my posts, many time ,I make a distention between the RCC and Catholic.

I was sure I told you about all of this, Jason, didn’t I? I knew wasn’t Roman Catholic. I remember, when I first came on the board, I told both you and Petro. Remember, Petro ( think it was Petro) started ranting about me being an Independent Catholic, and I said No no, I’m CEC, no Independent Catholic. As I said, I’m not sure if it was Petro or someone else, but I know you where there, Jason.

If people thought i believed that Bill Clinton ws the 3rd Adam, all I'd have to do is say that i certainly do not believe that and drop it. I have told the truth about my beliefs but i can't help what other people are going to think about it. People can only understand what they understand. I am only responsible for my words. What other people do with those words is contingent upon where they're coming from.

If you simply acknowledge that there are problems in the Ctholic church then you wouldn't be so bothered when other people believe the same. But if you don't see any problems in the Catholic church then I believe there's some idol worshipping going on.

Oklahoma Howdy to Heidi,

It's a definite there are problems with all of mankind's churches, including mine and your own. If a person has Jesus in their heart and is truly Saved, would you base your fellowship on the name of the church they attend?

Could it be said there is prejudice and stereotypical thinking based on the name of the church a person attends before they even mention what they believe? The answer is obviously yes, even if the name of the church doesn't hint at any association with a known denomination.

Just two cents worth.

In Christ,
Tom

tibby,

What you refer to garbage, are the official teachings of this institution.

In accusing me of not knowing what the catholic church teaches, you condenm yourself as a heretic to the teachings of the organization you embrace..

Go figure??

Didn't  say you were an enigma?



Petro

Heidi, we have talked about this. I don't have a problem with people who don't like the Catholic Church because of its problems. No group is prefect. It is the falsehoods I find annoying.

Well said, BEP.

Dear Tibby

       I dont remember if you wanted to start off or not.  However, if you were waiting on me, then here's my first shot (verse):

John 5:24

24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here, Salvation is clearly simple,
"...he that heareth my word..." - thats the Gospel messege -"...and Believeth (notice, no works here) on Him that sent me Has..." or have Present tense,
"...Everlasting Life..."  Everlasting Life or Eternal Life means UNending Life
"...And shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death to life"  No buts or if here because this is unconditional.

       Notice also that It says at the beginning, "Verily Verily..." - that strong emphasis.  Whenever you hear that, He is placing importance to it and this verse is no exception so it is not one of those nice saying but it is truth.

agur

No, no. It was me who was going to start. I got sidetracked I apologize. I never answer LG's apologetics post, either, lie kI said I would. Oh well ;D

Anyways, That makes sense. My question is this, if you head his word, and believe it, doesn't obeying it and serving come with it? For example, When a caterpiller becomes a butterfly, he has wings, will he not use them? If we arn't going good works, do we truly believe what the Gospal says? To put it into biblical terms:

James 2:17- In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

This verse must be read in context to get the full meaning, but the rules are, one verse, so please, look it up for the full feel of the verse. Anyways, this clearly starts that Faith isn't enough, you cna't just believe. If you do not do the work of the faith, then the fiath is dead, pointless!

BEP I'm a little surprised at this answer or post from you.  A person joins a church because they hold the same beliefs as that church.  I would NEVER be a member of a church that did not hold the same beliefs the same as I would never marry an unbelieving woman.

I would never be a part of a methodist church because methodists on the whole believe you can lose your salvation(those that don't are far and few between).  So of course when tibby claims to be catholic we know what his beliefs are (though I wonder how much he does often), or if some says they are a JW, AoG, etc etc, we know what they believe before hand.  This is why they are a part of that church.  This is why I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist.

There is no mystical body of Christ at this time, else there'd be no reason to have churchs (or for the stupid picky ones a called out assembly).

Those that are saved are part of the family of God but are not part of any church until they are baptised into one.

Oh no, looks like tibby's back on the works bandwagon.   :-[  Such a shame must be all that good catholic doctrine.   :-X


I said the RCC was a pagan institution.  You said no we are not.  Then you tell me you aren't a RC.  I think you're confused.

I agree with Saved 4 ever. All I know is that I have yet to meet one praciticing Catholic who KNOWS he has met his Lord and Savior on a personal level. I'm sure there are some who have but it hasn't been in my experience. On the other hand, I have yet to meet one person from the E-Free, Pentescostal or Assembly of Gof church who has NOT met his savior on a personal level. Something is wrong with the Catholic teaching if the congregation is not getting that message. That's all I'm going to say on this subject.

Explain the verse that I posted, then. Clearly, it means if you have no works, then you are not saved. It isn't enough to say the words. Just you honestly beleive in your heart, you will do good works. End of story.

When did I say we. I'm not saying I didn't, because, with the vast majority of my family RCC, I do hold a special place in my heart. BUt I do not remimber saying "we" when directly referring to the RCC. Catholic, Yes, Roman, maybe. Either way, I told you many time before I was CEC. Why did you not bring this up before now?

Heidi, the congragation is getting the message. Because you word it differently then some doesn't make it any less valid. You say you have yet to meet Pentescostal or Assembly of God people who are saved, uh? But every Catholic you know isn't saved, uh? Way to look at at the heart! Oh, wait... isn't only God able to do that... ;)

If I said I was a painter and you asked to see my paintings and I said I have none to show you, would you not doubt I was a painter?  What if I have never painted, but in my heart I truly believed I am a painter, am I a painter?  I think I would be hardpressed to convince anyone I was a painter.  So, can a Christian without works be a valuable witness for Christ? I sincerely doubt it. And for what reason are we Christians?  To glorify God, I hope.  WIthout works, we may be Christians, but we are worthless CHristians, and what good is that?

Well said

tibby,

I'll give the end of the story.........

This verse is famously used by catholics, to prove nothing to those they want to impresss with their knowledge of scripture. And they fail miserably.

The fact is one has to look at the context in which this one verse is spoken by James.

In the first place, the Apostle Paul, makes it perfectly clear that Abraham performed NO WORK as his FAITH was counted for Righteouness (Rom4:1-8), of course one needs to read the scriptures in their context, not just around and try to put forth their owns churchs teachings, and this same FAITH was what justified Abraham when God tested him  (Heb 11:17-19), this is precisely what Paul is speaking of at Romans 4, that Abraham, in obedience to Gods command to sacrifice his only son, thru whom the promises would be attaned, was willing to obey (without questioning God), "Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead;" such was Abrahams FAITH in his GOD.

Now, consider of what James is speaking of and the context in which he makes this beloved verse by those who work;  (The whole passage is verses 1 thru 22), I won't post them all, but will focus on the ones you use to try and prove your works will save you.

It is clear between verses 1 thru 16, that James is speaking to christians and exhorting them how to conduct themselves, in a way the pleases God, since He is no respecter of person, christians are called to fulfill the Royal Law {vs 8}, they ought not respect persons nor make distinctions between them, for to do so, is sin (vs 9); and (although christians are not under the law, since it has been abolished with the NT, (2Cor 3:13, Eph 2:15) although transgression of the law is still sin (1 Jhn 3:4), one most show forth obedience to the law as a testimony of ones FAITH in God.

 At verses 15 and 16, Paul gives an example of what christians ought not to do, if they see a needy person, he ends it by asking the question;  

16    And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

So thats a valid question, What does it profit for a christian to witness about Gods goodness and mercy, if one is not willing to show forth the same attributes as a testimony of ones FAITH in that goodness and mercy by meeting the  persons imediate needs.

The answer of course is nothing, since the christians blessing means nothing to the person who has the need. So the christians faith to him (the needy person) is seeing as dead faith (vs 17), unless he sees the christians work, love goodness, and mercy in meeting his needs.

So one can clearly see, that this work is not to be saved, but simply to showforth to men, and whoeverelse asks, show me your faith??  What have you done for God?? You who says you have Faith..

On the other hand if a christian makes an effort to meet the physical needs of an unbeliver who has a need, he has shown that his FAITH in God is a living FAITH in a Living God.

And this is what Paul is  saying at verse 18;

18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

The word justify, is defined as;  1. To show to be just, free from blame, this is what was declared of Abraham after God had counted his faith for righteouness (Gen 15:6), when God swore the covenant to him and sealed it with an oath (Gen 22:16-18).

The same words "justified" which proves Abraham was righteous, as used in the following verse simply reiterate the same words Paul states in Rom 4, concerning Abraham;

James 2
20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Abraham was declared righteous before he was tempted of God (Gen 22:1) and was simply justified, when he obeyed God, proving he was righteous.

In the same way, christians show forth their faith in God, by doing works worthy of their faith in God, not because they will be saved, because it is clear that no man can be saved by works of righteouness;

Titus 3
4  But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You are a college student, I trust you are able to understand these simple definition of words.

Work is not required to be saved, it is the result of being saved.  

Petro

Could ya shorted the post a little bit just this once ;D

Read Titus 3 in context. We is clearly talking about works being the signs of salvation!

Are you trying tell us you can we saved any NOT do good works?

I don't see what you are saying about James. CLEARLY he is saying that is Faith is fullfilled by works. Abrahams faith was shown through his works. James 2:20-24 is saying just what I am. Faith only is nothing without works.

Oklahoma Howdy to Saved_4ever,

I don't think you understood my post, and I would certainly have to disagree with a portion of your post.

"It's a definite there are problems with all of mankind's churches, including mine and your own. If a person has Jesus in their heart and is truly Saved, would you base your fellowship on the name of the church they attend?"

If a person has Jesus in their heart and is truly Saved, are you saying you wouldn't have any fellowship with them unless they went to your physical church building? As far as I am concerned, the Bible clearly teaches that person is my brother or sister in Christ if they are truly saved. God doesn't care about the name over the door of the physical church building.


Here, I would have to respectfully but completely disagree with you. It doesn't mean that I don't think your saved, and it doesn't mean that I can't have fellowship with you because of this disagreement. I have no doubt that you are saved, so you are my brother in Christ.

As far as I am concerned, joining a church made out of brick and mortar with human hands means nothing. The Church which is the Body of Christ most certainly exists. All truly saved people are members of the Church which is the Body of Christ, a church not made with human hands. Membership and baptism into physical church buildings means nothing. Your brick and mortar church is simply a place to assemble and worship on earth, but citizenship and church membership is in heaven for saved people.

You can see your brick and mortar church building, but it's not THE CHURCH. One could have their name on the membership roles and be baptized into a hundred physical church buildings and not be saved. One gets their name in the LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour and being BAPTIZED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. A man doesn't do the baptism, and Christ is the head over THE CHURCH. A saved person is a MEMBER OF HIS BODY, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

In Christ,
Tom

I've tried having fellowship with A/G's, and you can rarely have super-close friendships with them, because eventually your kajillion doctrinal disagreements will come up.

Dear Tibby

17   Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

       Context is the way to go, and you are correct in that.  However, some would think that context means other scriptures.  Now that is context but the deeper context is the verses around the problem verse.  
       With James 2, I dont think He is really talking about works as evidence towards God as it is really towards men.  Im not saying that because of John 5:24 because here is the context:

 14   What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

       Take that alone, it just might say what it means.  but John is very clear about salvation, there are no works involoved so do we have a controdiction?  Not really, because in verse 15-16 shows what he really means:

15   If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16   And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

       In verse 14, it says, "Though a man says" and in these two verses, "And one of you say unto them...".  does these three verses together sound like works needed to prove to God?  No, it sounds like it is towartds other people.  Therefore:

17   Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

       Verse 18 is more telling:

18   Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

       Show who?  God?  No, the verse says, "Yea, a man say..."  Furthermore, he says, "...Show me..." Not God but sjhow me, in reference to man that is talking:

"...shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

       John 5:24 is clear in the messege 100%  If there is a verse that seems to say something else, then the Bible controdicted itself and therefore, it is not Inspired as we hoped.  We shouldnt ignore the problem of course, but I think every verse  that seems to say the opposite can be answered simply by the cojntext around it or the background of it.  I've already posted it so feel free to  read it again.

agur

Dear Tibby

Tibby: Anyways, That makes sense. My question is this, if you head his word, and believe it, doesn't obeying it and serving come with it?

        Indeed, if I believe it, I should act on what I believed in.  However, this is not done out of being saved.  Again I should act on my faith but not for salvation or else my motives are not very clean.  Instead, I work because He saved me, because I have something others doesn't that if O share it  with them, they too can experience the freedom I have in Christ.  
       Speaking of Freedom, if I work because my Salvation is at stake, then thats not freedom, that is work that is due.  It use to be that I repent because I have no choice but to.  But now, I do have a choice; to glorify God or to sin and get chatized, but either way, I no longer act under threat but under free will made possible by Grace.

5   And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6   For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7   If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8   But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hebrews 12

agur

Oklahoma Howdy to Mr. 5020,

I think the same could apply with just about any two churches, depending on one or both of the people trying to communicate and have fellowship. However, the same problem could exist with people going to the same church or people attending a church of the same denomination.

What's sad is that both people are many times wrong in their arguments, but they will spend eternity together in Heaven. According to mankind, there are hundreds of types and varieties of Gospel and Baptism. However, the Holy Bible makes it exceptionally clear there is ONLY ONE GOSPEL and ONLY ONE BAPTISM. This is just an example.

In Christ,
Tom

A sign to other men who ask, for instance like the unsaved....

This has nothing to do, with proving one is saved to God, sonce God knows better; He knows Christians He saves, were not saved by works.


That is exactly the point that Romans 4 and Titus 3 make, surely your reading  comprhension skills are above those of children,.................. aren't they?


Th words "fullfill and justify" are two completely different words, this is the word gymastics one must do with Gods work to make it say  what you want it to say..

Please read the context, Paul is speaking of the works which justify; I explained to you what the definition of justification is.


Actually Abrahams Faith, which was counted for his Righteousness are shown thru the works and it (justification) proves he was saved.

It doesn't mean he was saved, it simply means his works proved he was saved..

To twist this passage to mean something else is to remove then add words to Gods Word.

You need to familiarize yourself with scripture before you jump to conclusions, see Rev 22:18-19.

It is clear from Romans 4, that Abraham was not saved by works, he was declared righteous because of his Faith in God, and;

Rom 4
11  ........................... received the sign of ciurcumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

And his justification (proved to be righteous or saved, whichever words you want to use) came after he was tempted of God.

Do you comprehend the meaning of the word imputed??

Once again,

The word justify, is defined as;  1. To show to be just, free from blame, this is what was declared of Abraham after God had counted his faith for righteouness (Gen 15:6), when God swore the covenant to him and sealed it with an oath (Gen 22:16-18).

Justify = To show,  not the same as,  To Declare...........

What college did you say you attend??


Petro

Tibby what do you think these good works are anyway?


To BEP, I don't recall making any mention of brick and mortar.  The church is the people not the building.  We can just continue to disagree on other things though.

Oklahoma Howdy to Saved_4ever,

The analogy is the same (neither are THE CHURCH) - some belong to the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, and some don't. You might ask your pastor or check your Bible about the Body of Christ. Holler if you want me to provide the information. Regardless, disagreement is fine - nothing personal I hope.

In Christ,
Tom

I already have, he agree's with me.

Oklahoma Howdy to Saved_4ever,

Again, nothing personal, but I think there had to be a problem with semantics or the way you asked the question. Ask him "What is the Church which is THE BODY OF CHRIST"? The Holy Bible is very clear on this matter, and I'll be happy to share it with you.

Your local assembly or my local assembly (brick and mortar or people) are not THE CHURCH. The saved people from both of our assemblies are members of THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. It would be pretty sad if your pastor told you that your only brethren in existence attended a single physical building. This is the significance of claiming a brother or sister "IN CHRIST" or closing a letter or post like below:

In Christ,
Tom

tibby,

So the word justify or justified does not mean saved, at all, since Christ never had to be saved, He was shown forth by the Spirit.

Not these verses;

1 Tim 3
16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This verse above is speaking of Jesus being manisfested in the Spirit NOT being SAVED, what does the word manifested, mean to you??        

To us,Manifest is defined as  =  to show plainly, reveal.

It is clear this verse does not teach Jesus was saved, or do we believe  he was saved by the Spirit, the bible does not teach such a thing.      

The same word justified in this verse is identically the same word found in James 2;21,24 and 25.
 
Jesus was shown forth, manifested, justified , revealed, unveiled, shewed by God the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that raise Him, from the dead.

So, understanding what one reads is directly linked to their comprehension level of the language they command.

I encourage you to pray for wisdom and understanding from above, that you may not use scripture to teach what it does not teach.
 
The book of James, teaches what it is, that justifies men, before men by them that claim to have faith in God, they can claim their good works as evidence that they are saved; if they are believed or not doesn't matter, since their works is what justifies (shows forth) their faith, and their works is based on faith in Him whom He has sent;  Jesus Christ.



Petro

Oh, you can work a dictionary rather well. We all know I can't. ;)

Try working a bible just as well, maybe you would understnad where Catholics stand. You CANNOT be saved, truly saved, and not do good works. When we are saved, we go through a change. If we don't do good works, we are not changed, and we are not saved. How can you not have works and be saved? If you are saved, you will do good works. This isn't rocket sceince.

Tibby,
Out of curiousity, when did you get saved and how did your heart change?

You haven't answered my question tibby.  What do you think these "works" are?  I do mean specifics at least three.

tibby,

You said;


Allow me to bring out what you have written which is not true;

"CLEARLY he is saying that is Faith is fullfilled by works."

The end result of faith is righteousness, not works or it can said; ............faith is fullfilled in righteousness.

Now you say;


Allow me to draw out your contradiction.


Two sentences and you completely contradict yourself.

In the first one you say, exactly what I have been stating all along, one must be saved in order to do good works this is biblical; while in the second sentence you say; one must do good works in order to be changed, and if one doesn't do good works,  one is not saved,

reinforcing the idea that unless one does good works one cannot be saved.

In the first quote at reply #73 you said, "Faith is fullfilled by works", this is the issue;  now you say;

"How can you not have works and be saved? If you are saved, you will do good works."

And I  am not disagreeing with you, at this point!  I have pointed out all along, GODS WORKS are done, because one is saved..

But your confusion lies in the fact that you really do not believe a man is SAVED, by faith alone, and clearly the scriptures teach this point at Gal 2:16;

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I know that what you really believe in; and that it is the first point which you posted at reply #73, which is the one I take issue with you, because it is unbilical.

Because what you really believe is what the Catholic church teaches, and that is that, one must DO good works TO BE SAVED, not that one does good works BECAUSE one is saved.

Now this is what the Catholic church teaches;

There is quite a difference..between doing good works in order to be changed (saved), and doing good works because one is changed (saved).

************
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360310.htm

SERMON X. ON THE COLLECTIONS,v...............................

"But, perhaps there are some rich people, who, although they are not wont to help the Church's poor by bounteous gifts, yet keep other commands of GOD, and among their 121 many meritorious acts of faith and uprightness think they will be pardoned for the lack of this one virtue But this is so important that, though the rest exist without it, they can be of no avail."
"And when the Son of Man comes in His Majesty and is seated on His glorious throne, and all nations being gathered together, division is made between the good and the bad, for what shall they be praised who stand upon the fight except for works of benevolence and deeds of love which Jesus Christ shall reckon as done to Himself? For He who has made man's nature His own, has separated Himself in nothing from man's humility. And what objection shall be made to those on the left except for their neglect of love, their inhuman harshness, their refusal of mercy to the poor? as if those on the right had no other virtues those on the left no other faults. But at the great and final day of judgment large-hearted liberality and ungodly meanness will be counted of such importance as to outweigh all other virtues and all other shortcomings, so that for the one men shall gain entrance into the Kingdom, for the other they shall be sent into eternal fire. IV. And its efficacy, as Scripture proves, is incalculable. Let no one therefore, dearly beloved, flatter himself on any merits of a good life, if works of charity be wanting in him, and let him not trust in the purity of his body, if he be not cleansed by the purification of almsgiving. For "almsgiving wipes out sin, kills death, and extinguishes the punishment of perpetual fire. But he who has not been fruitful therein, shall have no indulgence from the great Re-compenser, as Solomon says, "He that closeth his ears lest he should hear the weak, shall himself call upon the LORD, and there shall be none to hear him."
*************

Clearly what is being taught herein is that, good works is what saves the people that give, to meet the need of the needy.

Note the words above;

It is in this work of giving that sins are forgiven;
In short good works in the form of almsgiving is what justifies and makes alive then one that was dead becuase of sin.

In contrast to what scripture explicitly teaches that man is justified first before God and then thru his good works justifies himself before men.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. (James 2:18)

And by the way the Catholic church believes and teaches Abraham was justified before God (why they teach man is justified by works may be because of an ulterior motive), at Gen 17:5, when his faith was counted to him, for righteousnes way before he was tested by God (Gen 22:1) it wasn't until almost twenty years after God declared him righteous.

Abraham was already justified by his faith in God, when God commanded him, to sacrifice his only begotten son, Isaac, of Sarah, This is why Paul wrote Rom 4:1-3.

Petro

No he didn't, but distinguishing between cause and effect doesn't seem to be your strog suit, does it?

What he said was, if you have been saved, then that will cause you to do good works.  Therefore, anyone who doesn't do good works has clearly not been saved.

This is clearly a quote, but I don't suppose you know from where?

Ebia put it best:


They are not contradictory. You are full of it. We can’t have faith without works, we can’t have faith with out works.

Your car has to have an engine to move.
You Car has to have tires to move.
Your can need some form of power to move.

These are not contradictory, they are all different things required to make a car move undependably. from one place to the next. If anyone one of these things was gone, we would be calling a toe truck. You would not say “Oh, but the tires are full and the gas is in the tank” but take the engine out because it seems to be in contradiction to the fact that Tires and gasoline make the car go? No.

Oh yeah, I couldn’t help but notice Gal 2:16 has justified in it. Very interesting, don’t you think? Especially with what you said about this before… Now, YOU are contradicting your self, my brother.

Read James 2:18, I don’t think you understand it. He is clearly saying Faith is nothing with good works, he is saying “show me your dead Faith, I will show you my true faith.”

tibby,

You agree with ebia, because both of you ride the same wave, the baffoo wave.

You said;


You do not even understand what Gal 2:16 says, you pretend to.

It is plain, "for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.", and the law is summarized in two commandments.

Charity is the one the Catholic church teaches, saves men from sin.

I suppose you consider this teaching garbage, also..


Well, lets see, if this is true;

Jas 2
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Wrong, the word dead is one you have added, it doesn't even appear in the verse..

Your own interpretation of the passage in Jamess 2, proves that men consider other mens faith dead, unless they can prove their faith by showing works based on charity to them.

As if they are god, and judge other mens faith.

Men are saved by FAITH in Jesus, and show forth this great truth by obeying God in doing good works.

Petro

Faith is simply faith. We can't muster it up. If we give, we are to give with the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. If we call attention to our good works, then we are doing it for our glory rather than for God's. True good works come from the fruits of the spirit, but if we're doing good works to show what wonderful Christians we are, then they are meaningless. In those cases, we always want something back from the "victims" of our giving. So, good works, alone mean nothing. It is the spirit in which we give it that shows if they're coming from faith. That faith comes from a lifetime process of feeling the depth of our sins so we can understand the full measure of forgiveness. Good works are then a "response" rather than a "decision".

If this is the basic for the whole argument, then I see your problem. The RCC, or any other catholic church for that matter, does not believe that. NO truly Christian Group believes that, Catholic included. Works alone will not save you. If you are saved, you WILL do good works. If you do not do good works, your faith is dead, you are not saved.  If you do works alone, and have no faith, don’t believe in Jesus, you are not saved. Nor by your works do Catholic believe your sins are forgiven. But our own repentance and God grace are we forgiven. Ask any catholic, any real catholic, no amount of good works will get an Atheist into heaven. You only read part of the Catholic Doctrine if you think any Catholic rite believes works only will save you.

Tib's two things A) A car does not NEED to have tires to move.  IT certainly is benificial but it's not needed.  Semantics I know but I though it would be fun.  

Now then, could you please answer my previous question.  It has little to do with petro and his thing.

Then what, if not wheels on the bottem, does a car need to move? Did somone order my flying car, yet?  ;D

Which question was that? The one about good works? It can be something as big as giving up all your worldly possesions and devoting your life to helping the poor of India, or something a small as saying a little prayer for someone who is having some problems. It is a work, an act of some kind, that helps others and futhers the gospal. If you don't have such things in your life, how can you possably be saved? That is my point.

I does if you include 2:17

tibby,

It use useless to discuss, this doctrinal issue with someone who, flips and flops like a slippery fish, I gave you the teaching your church espouses, and you ignored it, just  as you have been ignoring Jason question...

The Catholic church teaches that though a man has faith in Jesus, that faith is dead, unless one does charitable work;

You must not be able to understand what you read, note I will post it again for you;

" Let no one therefore, dearly beloved, flatter himself on any merits of a good life, if works of charity be wanting in him, and let him not trust in the purity of his body, if he be not cleansed by the purification of almsgiving. For "almsgiving wipes out sin, kills death, and extinguishes the punishment of perpetual fire."

If men are not justified by keeping the Law, which is a work, then giving money or any charitable act much less..

I am pointing out to you what it is you are supposed to believe, obviously you have a problem with this.

So is this official teaching the catholic church holds to, garbage then??

Faith alone in Jesus according to the Word of God is all that is necessary to be justified.

Rom 3
24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Abraham was justified by FAITH, noit by works Rom 4:1-5.

Rom 5
1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


And of course because you are unable to comprehend what information is given you, you reject the truth.

Gal 2
 16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

If you want to detect what is false, study the truth..


Petro

This all sounds like a debate with much strife and this of course is a sin according to the Apostle Paul.  

Tibby, please disprove this:

Jesus told one of the sinners on the cross next to Him that Today thought shall be with me in paradise.  Two things -- one, the sinner was absolutely incapable of doing anything while dying on the cross, yet by his faith had a personal assurance from Christ that he was saved and would be in paradise that day.

Two -- a car can move without an engine -- a flatbed towtruck often carrries a car when it can not move on it's own, just like the Lord Jesus carries us when we are down and broken.

If anyone can disprove what Jesus said to the sinner then you have proved works are needed for salvation.

Most importantly are we worshipping God and have we prepared to meet Him?

LinuxGeek

Petro- I answers Jason’s question. You never answer any of mine, and then you accuse ME of not listening? You saw I flow flop like a fish, sounds more like a excuse. If this what pointless, then you would never talk about this again, but you will. You actions contradict your words.

It isn’t the Catholic church doesn’t teach that teaches that though a man has faith in Jesus, that faith is dead, unless one does charitable work. The Catholic Church teach is a man don’t do good works, he has no faith to start will.

I really do not understand your heart. How can you not read the gospel, read what Jesus gave went though for you and NOT want to help others!? How can you read About a man like Jesus ,and not want to live like him give like him?! How can you honestly believe Jesus, GOD, did all that for YOU, and NOT do good works? You say I avoid Jason’s question, but in almost every post, I have asked you this in one way or another, and you have not replied. DO not imply I am skipping questions when you are doing the same. You don’t want to discuses this issue, you have already decided this issue, it is dead to you. You only wish to read your own elongated dribble.


Yeah, Jesus told the Sinner on the cross they would be in heaven. The question is, who died first? Where they saved in the New Testament sense, or the old? Either way, his actions did prove. The only thing he could move with the least amount of  pain, his mouth. It not that an action? It is as much action as he could do. On top of all that, you are misunderstand the doctrine.

About a car being towed, read my post again, I addressed that. Like you cannot get to heaven on your family and friends faith. You aren’t going to pay a tow trunk to take you on a cross country trip. Well, you might, but I wouldn’t.

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Could we please try to stop ripping each other to pieces?

Nobody is listening because of battle noises.

Everyone on all sides of the issue might learn something if the battle noise is reduced.

Thanks in advance for letting each other live.

In Christ,
Tom

It needs wheels it doesn't need tires.  Watch cops or something sometime.  I've seen them go quite far on just the rims.  NO it's not semantics either.  I was just playing with you.

Now then if something as "small" as prayer is a work how would you ever know if someone was doing that?  How does prayer show your faith to men?  Especially if they can't see it?

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Could it be that everyone is right and everyone is wrong at the same time?

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Romans 11:6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

James 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Questions for mankind:

Can a person falsely profess to be saved? (A - Yes)

If a person claims to be saved and there is no change in their lives, were they saved or do they simply boast of being saved? (A - They were not saved)

If a person claims to be saved and there is no desire for the things of God, were they saved or do they simply boast of being saved? (A - They were not saved)

Is a person saved by Grace and faith alone? (A - Yes)

Is salvation a Gift from God that can't be earned, deserved, or paid for in any way by man? (A - Yes)

Are good works required for Salvation? (A - No)

Do the writings of Paul and James conflict and contradict each other? (A - No)

Does Paul clearly state that Salvation is by Grace alone and faith alone? (A - Yes)

Does James clearly state that faith without works is dead? (A - Yes)

REPEAT: Do the writings of Paul and James conflict and contradict each other? (A - No)

--------------------------
Conclusion: According to Paul, Salvation is by Grace alone and by faith alone. According to James, there is and will be evidence of Salvation if the person was truly saved. So, do the two conflict? No, they perfectly compliment each other.

In Christ,
Tom

This is exactly the point, the person that is saved, will produce good works for God, but not to be saved; but becuase that person is saved

Petro

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Petro,

Exactly! If you think about this from several perspectives, good works can become a more beautiful thing. If good works were required for Salvation, how many people would do them grudgingly or half-hearted? However, a truly saved person does good works from a grateful heart because of the Grace, Love, and GIFT of God. There is obviously a big difference between doing something because you feel who have to as opposed to doing it because you want to out of a heart of love. All good that results is to the Glory of Almighty God alone.

In Christ,
Tom

Ya think? What have we been argueing about?

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Tibby,

This question has been discussed throughout the ages, sometimes bitterly and sometimes from a Biblical perspective that tends to build up the participants.

One such discussion from a Biblical perspective involved justification before men as opposed to justification before Almighty God. This discussion can lead to the walk of the believer and the testimony of the believer, both being important topics. Paul and James both addressed this and other issues.

The argument on the far end of the spectrum involves Paul or James, one or the other having to be wrong. Throughout the ages, the argument went so far as to say that the writings of one or the other needed to be removed from the Holy Bible. Some went so far as to say one had to be a heretic. These arguments were usually bitter and usually involved a legalist claiming Paul to be a heretic. If you think about it, there are a large number of people throughout the ages who have never accepted the Gospel of the Grace of God, nor have they accepted Jesus Christ as being the Son of God.

The reality is that Paul and James DO NOT conflict or contradict each other. They mesh perfectly within the Gospel of the Grace of God.

In Christ,
Tom

Petro Says:
"This is exactly the point, the person that is saved, will produce good works for God, but not to be saved; but becuase that person is saved."

      I'm in full agreement with this.  If faith requires something else to get one to heaven, then it is not Saving faith at all.  You either trust Jesus completely for your salvation or you don't.  And this kind of Faith is not Faithfulness nor is it something that you have to have in order to remain Saved because if that is so, then thats effort (works) and that is not Saving Faith nor is it really the Gospel that saves.
      Tibby, you said that if one has true faith, one will work.  In a sense, yes, because when persecution comes around, phony members will leave.  However this is the question you have to ask yourself:

Can you lose that Salvation, yes or no?

      If you ssay yes to this, then it doesn't matter whether they believe enough, continueing in faith or have clean reasons because either way, if you can lose it, you will have to do something about that to keep it.

If it is all free will, then isn't so that salvation IS dependant on the person?  

        Faith or no faith, according to RCC Gospel, it is still dependant on a person, and again, Saving Faith is not something you have to continue on or having.  The Kind of faith that you do have to continue on is not the faith in context with Salvation but instead, relationship with God, now thats where faith is needed to help you work; thats where faith and works go hand-in-hand but never concerning salvation.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth: to the Jew first then also and unto the Greeks
For therein is the righteiousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith
Romans 1:16-17

      And the Gospel does not mean the whole Bible though it is good.  But, the Good-News is this in the nutshell:


1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1 Corinthians 15:1-5

      If you believe this, you are saved and thats the end of it.  Now you enter a relationshjip than a religion and your practice as a believer is true religion.

agur

I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change. I think there is such a thing as an intellectual understanding of salvation without having received the holy Spirit. In fact, there are many people who go to church who believe Jesus died for their sins, but they don't know what it means to be born again. Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit comes inside of us and takes up residence.

Heidi Says:
"I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change. I think there is such a thing as an intellectual understanding of salvation without having received the holy Spirit. In fact, there are many people who go to church who believe Jesus died for their sins, but they don't know what it means to be born again. Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit comes inside of us and takes up residence."

        Amen Heidi, I was wandering about it (I wondered everytime if I were saved).  What if someone just says yes to everything the Gospel messege (God is Holy, Man has Fallen-cannot reach Him, Christ took Mans Place, and man's response)?  
       That is just like a Jew saying in James 2, "Yes there is one God"  Yet to that even the demons shudder at the thought.  Did those demons really believe?  They do believe He exists; after all, they did see God's glory, and Satan was in His presence, so do they believe God is, and JEsus Is Christ and God?   Hard question, but in a sense, Yes, because they saw God so there is no way they can deny His existance and they probably knew what God stood for, but that's as far as  it goes.

George Bush in is speech concerning 9/11 says to the World, "You are either with us or with the Terrorist?"

       Knowing who God is isn't enough, what you do with that knowledge?  

agur

tibby,

You should really change your moniker to "ziggy", because of your zigging and zagging.

Please note, what I answered in my reply #71;


Now you ask....... "What have we been argueing about?", I haven't been arguing anything, but shoring up, the same statement I made back then at reply #71, it is exactly what I stated in my last post herein.

The Catholic church teaches a salvation works gospel, and although you were able to slide under the statement BEP made when he asked,

"Could it be that everyone is right and everyone is wrong at the same time?"

I know exactly what you mean...and that is that not only must one be saved to do good works, but, that one must continue doing good works to remain saved.

That is an unbilbical position....

Now tell me, you don't believe this..??

And I will understand that what you honestly believe is that what the Catholic church teaches is garbage...

Petro

Heidi,

You sound as thou you are God, what qualifies you to know, this mans heart??





If your not, I will erase this question from here..

Petro

Sorry, it was suzie...oh well..  

Petro

   Heidi;
    I agree with you I have met, and knowen many that have head knowledge, but not hart knowledge of what Christ has did for us.

So forrest,

Are posting this because you agree with ziggy??

Or is it because you are implying you know my heart.


Petro

Dear Brother Petro

You said:

"Heidi, 'You sound as thou you are God, what qualifies you to know, this mans heart???'"

       Wow, now wait-a-minute...Petro, I don't think she is proclaiming a relevation of sort nor is it a dispensation adding to doctrines already found in the Bible such as the Rapture.  Now of course, you meant the insides of man's heart, but you acted as if she made a breech.  
       No where did she claim to know but only she "Thinks..."  Instead, I think she got the idea though experience and observation.  

I once knew a person who believed Jesus died for his sins, but he had no heart change. I think there is such a thing as an intellectual understanding of salvation without having received the holy Spirit. In fact, there are many people who go to church who believe Jesus died for their sins, but they don't know what it means to be born again. Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit comes inside of us and takes up residence.

       Now if you are in need to defeat her "Authority" concerining Intellectual faith then in like-manner, prove me wrong.  Look at my response to her because I posted scriptures in support.

agur

       Oh by the way, Petro...have you read the Parable on the seeds and the sower?  How seeds fall in various places but all died but one which landed on Good Soil?

18   Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19   When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

       This can be a person who simply said yes but have no real reason why he/she should.  Pretty much just do what everyone else is doing.

20   But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21   Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

       The root for faith is knowledge but also seriousness seriousness - counting the cost prior to faith.  Now all who believes have varying faith; some as small as the mustard seed, and others like the centurian.  Regardless of how small, if serious, their faith saved them.  Now we know Christ will save all that believes him (John 10:28).  Christ also says that whosoever perservear to the end, the same shall be saved (Note: salvation is not discussed in this passage, otherwise the verses around would have indicated it -Matthew 24:13).  True believers will persevere, for are we not "more than conquerers?"
       But for someone who simply says yes, and recieved it with joy, did he/she recieved it with joy but they ran!  Keep in mind that every believer persevears - did they really believe, or did they simply said yes thinking "Ah yes, im saved..."   I think their faith is sort of Cavalier that they took his Salvation for granted so when persecution comes - "Wow - not for me!!!"  Their Faith is no faith, they never recieved Salvation because their decisions to believe is not genuine - like going to church every sunday like many protestants see see Catholics do.

22   He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

       Could it be that people gave their lives to Christ because of the promises of Riches?  Of course!  they stake their lives on hte promise but they may find themselves still poor not knowing that the riches of Christ is not found on money.  Again though it is dependant on the seriousness of he person because one can be attracted to money but at the same time "You know, even if I am not rich, shouldn't I just accept Christ?"

23   But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

       Now this is real faith, one who trusts God according to knowledge

Jesus' Explination on the parable of the Sower - Matthew 13:18-23

agur

      Petro;
     Who is Ziggy?
     As for "implying you know my heart." no I do not.
   was adressed to Heidi not Petro.
   What would you call One who lives in sin admetedly, and knows the plan of salvation, belives its real but rejects it,and tells you that he would rather go to hell, and yes I have met some that are that dedecated to Satan.

Oh, I’m Ziggy, uh? Well you, you are… you are Charlie Brown! :P

Ok for real, just because you don’t understand what I say the first several times doesn’t mean I change my mind.

Also, you CLEARLY misunderstand Catholic Doctrine. This comes as no surprise, of course. It seems to be your signature. I guess I'm lucky, at least you don’t slash a “Z” in my shirt. ;D

Now comes the hard decision. To correct you once again, so you can say once again “Na ha, Tibby, you are wrong, because I know more about what you believe then you do” or to make this my last post on this thread about this topic… I think I saw a strip of Dilbert comics where he had to make a choice like this to make…

Ah, comics are geat ;D

tibby,

There you go slithering again,  



What have corrected?....................as useually................nothing..

Petro

Yeah, nothing you will listen too.

agur,

It makes no never mind, the heart is not revealed to men, God saves sinners, and some who are saved,  to others appear to have no heart change.

To say matter of fact like;  "He had no heart change" is to assert somehow, one knows the heart.

It is not the same as saying I know what you believe from what you say, or post.

On these things one may state; I think joe blow may not really believe what he claims to believe.

There are all sorts of doctrines being taught out there today, sorting out believers from those who claim to believe requires discernment, to speak of others hearts is one thing, to speak concerning their own words is a different matter..

Petro

Dear Brother Petro

       I understand what you are saying and yes, it may seem that she (Heidi) is making a judgement call; however it only seems that way, and i think your attitude was un-called for.  While God knows who is saved and who isn't, no believer can truely know whether one is saved or not; thats why James stressed works (2:14-16, 18 to show others your faith is real).  Works are the only clue to us believers that the individual may be saved (but again keep in mind, it's not proven test).
       Individually, it is easier because you know yourself better than others:

5   Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2 Corinthians 13:5 (1 Corinthians 15:3, "...if you hold fast...unless ye believed in vain...(or didn't believe at all)"

        Your intentions are good, but you were unecesarily rough.  From what I can see, Heidi until now has been on your side of the issue but it was only then when she shared her opinion that you came against, and not only her, forrest too.
       I know there are a lot of damnedable heresies, but let me tell you that even in among bretherans, there are views that may be contrary to your own.  Im not talking abouit the Gospel, im talking about the little things like these.  The Bible is such that no man's wisdom can equal (nor any so called god for that matter), thats why we hold the Bible as our absolute truth.  Therefore, we deny any tradition, practice, and doctrine outside of Scripture (after all, scripture says so).  But because we hold the bible as true source, it allows certain amount of autonomy that each believer has.  As a result, we are independants, we do not owe any allegiance to any denomination or organization lest we fall into a trap of traditional creeds and the "love of" denomination placing second, the love of Bible.  
       Does that mean we can interpret the Bible anyway we please?  Absolutely Not!!!  It is one thing to owe allegiance to scripture as priority to Church doctrine but it is quite another to ignore any passage you did not like.    

agur

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Agur3046,

I think that you just described something that many of God's children struggle with on a regular basis, and I am certainly one of them. Belief can be so strong on certain issues because of the extremely personal nature of our fellowship with our Lord and Saviour. It is personal to the point of being sensitive to many.

The root of your post is something I have been studying about and praying about for some time. I'm not talking about any specific brother or sister in Christ, rather all of them that I have reason to believe belong to Jesus Christ.

The subject is a very difficult one for me: (1) unity in and of the Spirit, (2) the bond of peace, (3) Biblical love, (4) and any Scriptures that deal with Christian love and behavior toward others, ESPECIALLY OTHER BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST.

I sometimes give myself the excuse that it was a time to be bold and blunt, and that excuse is only true part of the time. I also give myself the excuse that I am too bold and blunt because of 25 years in police work, but that is not the truth either. I've told myself that God may have use of someone bold and blunt, but that is only true part of the time. The rest of the time, I'm wrong. I've been praying about this and studying the issues of Christian love for some time. It seems sometimes that I make progress and then slip backward again. I've prayed for forgiveness and guidance.

The commandment to love one another as Christ has loved us is a challenge to say the least. I know there are appropriate times for boldness, times for rebuke, and time to stand firm and unmovable. However, these Biblical times are rare compared to the number of times I slip into that mode. I fail, and I fail again. These are times to pray for one another that God will grant us patience, wisdom, and forbearance to love one another as Christ has loved us.

In Christ,
Tom

       Thanks BEP.  I see what you are saying and I agree.  For me, I fell in love with the idea of grace and it became my own belief - one I hold dear (I never knew what grace was before  :-[).  In consenquence, I am less willing to be wrong, "Well...uh...well...um...(eh-hem), this is what I believe, so there! >:("
       I think as time goes on, we become attached to what we believe.  Through many victories our faith in our doctrine is solidified until one comes along and blows our faith out of the water - who saw that coming?  Therefore, we must at all times before embracing a doctrine or new, be objective and not lean to what we fancey or feel for that matter - even our heart.

Jeremiah 17
9   The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

7   Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.  - Proverbs 3:7

      And if the doctrine is embraced, give graceful attention even if, "OH-its sooo obvious!!!"  I'm not saying to open your mind completly, there should be a healthy amount of skepticism, but be ready, the Bible is clear, but you may be reading it wrong (2 Timothy 2:15).

agur