The Doctrine of Pastor Teacher......

[linssue55]

Verse 15 — “By me [Bible doctrine and the laws of divine establishment] kings rule [ruling is an application], And rulers make just laws [Application of establishment principles].”

            Verse 16 — “By me princes govern, And all honourable judges of the land.”

            Verse 17 — “I [doctrine] love those who love me [for doctrine to love you, learning it and understanding it isn’t enough; it is understanding it and thinking doctrine or learning and applying doctrine. You begin to love doctrine, not by learning it, but by applying it. Love is an application of knowledge.]; And those who diligently seek me [the piel participle of shachar. The piel is the intensive stem and it means concentration. You learn by concentration but you also apply doctrine through concentration.] will find me.”

            Verse 18 — “With me are riches and honour [escrow blessings for time]; Enduring wealth and prosperity [escrow blessings for the eternal state].”

            Verse 19 — “My fruit [production] is better than pure and fine gold; And my profit better than the choicest silver.”

            Verse 20 — “I walk in the way of righteousness, along the path of virtue.”

            Verse 21 — “To give an inheritance [the hiphil infinitive construct from the verb nachal — to cause to inherit] to those who love me [doctrine], And I will make their treasuries full.”

            The dynamics of metabolised doctrine:

            Verse 22 — “The Lord possessed me [doctrine] at the beginning of his work, Before his deeds of old [in other words, doctrine was in the mind of God before the creation of the universe].”

            Verse 23 — “From eternity past I was established [the piel perfect of the verb nasak — I was poured in a mould. Established categorically would be a better translation. God thinks categorically (the C---in ICE) ! Absolute truth lends itself to categorical thinking; relative truth does not.] from the foundation of the earth.”

            Verse 24 — “When there were no oceans, I [doctrine] was already formed; When as yet there were no springs abounding with water.”

            Verse 25 — “Before the mountains were settled in place, Before the hills I [doctrine] was formed categorically:”

            Verse 26 — “Before he made planet earth, or its fields, Or the sum total of the dust of the earth.”

            Verse 27 — “When he established the heavens, I was there: When he marked out a horizon on the face of the deep:”

            Verse 28 — “When he made the skies above: When he restrained the fountains of the deep.”

            Verse 29 — “When he set the sea in its boundary, So that the water would not overflow his mandate: When he marked out the foundations of the earth:”

            Verse 30 — “The I [Bible doctrine] was with him, as a designer of the work [creation]: Rejoicing always in his presence [Bible doctrine perceived, metabolised, applied is the true source of happiness in the devil’s world];   

            Verse 31 — “rejoicing in the world, his earth; And having my delight in the human race.”

            Verse 32 — “Now therefore, human race, listen to me: Blessed [ashere - happiness] are those who guard my ways [the ways of doctrine].”

            You have to start with understanding:

            Verse 33 — “Hear instruction [understanding doctrine from your right pastor teacher] and become wise [thinking doctrine and/or application of doctrine], Do not neglect it.”

            Verse 34 — “Blessed [happiness] is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates [the place of assembly worship], Waiting at my doors [when you really like it you wait for the doors to open].”

            Verse 35 — “For he who finds me [doctrine] finds capacity for life [But remember: capacity for life is not just learning doctrine, it is application of doctrine], And obtains grace from the Lord.”

            Verse 36 — “But he who misses me [Bible doctrine] injures himself: All who hate me [Bible doctrine] love the sin unto death.”

            Inevitably, the person who stays with doctrine is going to come to the place of sharing God’s happiness. No matter how much misery and disappointment along the way, if you stick with it you are going to end up with +H.

 

            4. Bible doctrine was received under the function of GAP (Grace Apparatus for Perception)  — 1 Corinthians 2.

                        a) Bible doctrine received under the function of GAP produces confidence in phase two — Job 5:24-27; 2 Corinthians 5:6-8.

                        b) Doctrine produces divine viewpoint in the right lobe — Isaiah 55:7-9; 2 Corinthians 10:5.

                        c) It orients the believer to the plan of God — Isaiah 26:3,4; Romans 8:28.

                        d) It produces stability of mind — James 1:8.

                        e) It becomes the basis for divine guidance — Romans 12:2,3.

                        f) It leads to occupation with Christ in the supergrace life — Hebrews 12:2,3. Therefore Bible doctrine is the only way to know and to love Jesus Christ — 1 Corinthians 2:16 cf. Philippians 3:10; Ephesians 3:19.

            5. The communication of Bible doctrine in the Church Age is the function of the pastor-teacher. He is the communicator and therefore he has the responsibility for the local church — Hebrews 13:7; Ephesians 4:11-13; Colossians 1:25-29.

            6. The plan of God is vindicated through Bible doctrine — Romans 3:4.

            7. Without Bible doctrine Satan corrupts the mind of believers — 2 Corinthians 11:13. This is accomplished through the doctrine of demons infiltrating under conditions of reversionism — 1 Timothy 4:1

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8. Doctrine is the basis for deliverance in phase two — 1 Timothy 4:16.

 

            The importance of Bible doctrine

            1. Bible doctrine is the content of the Word of God. It is the communication of the Word of God. Doctrine is the communication of Bible subjects on the basis of the exegesis of the original languages or an analysis and classification of the English text. Doctrine simply means what is taught or Bible teaching. Doctrine therefore refers to the transfer of Bible subjects from the passage of the Word of God by the pastor-teacher to your individual soul as a member of the royal family of God.

            2. The word doctrine does occur as a part of Bible nomenclature. We have both Hebrew and Greek words to indicate this fact. A popular word in the Hebrew is the noun emeth which means doctrine and is generally translated that way, though sometimes it is translated simply “truth” — Psalm 31:5. It emphasises true doctrine in contrast to false doctrine if Proverbs 22:21; Psalm 25:5; 26:3; 86:11. Probably one of the most important words is Bible doctrine in the soul under the Hebrew word chakmah. It is the same as the Greek e)pignwsij and it refers to doctrine which is in the soul and therefore usable — Psalm 8:1. A third word is the word shemuah which also means doctrine or what is heard. It emphasises doctrine from the standpoint of concentration — Isaiah 28:9. It refers to the function of GAP with emphasis on the concentration of the believer. A fourth noun in the Hebrew is leqach which is translated ‘doctrine’ but it really means the poise, the self-discipline which is necessary to consistently assimilate doctrine and to fulfill the tactical objective of victory in the spiritual life — Deuteronomy 32:2; Job 11:4; Proverbs 4:2; Isaiah 29:24. Then there is musar which has the connotation of the communication of doctrine with emphasis on the disciplinary aspect of learning.

            In the Greek there are basically four words or derivative systems which present the concept of doctrine. The derivatives of the verb ginwskw, which means to learn or to know, to comprehend, are quite a number. It means intelligent comprehension of an object or matter, therefore it means perception. Gnosis is taken from that verb — Bible doctrine taken into the left lobe, the objective understanding of the doctrine. When it is transferred into the human spirit and then up into the right lobe or the heart it is called e)pignwsij. There are other words like prognwsij which refers to doctrine in the mind or to doctrine understood by the omniscient God in eternity past. It is doctrine which existed before time. It is the concept that doctrine has always existed whether it was written or not, for doctrine is the thinking of God, there never was a time when doctrine did not exist. There is an adjective which emphasises the potentiality of learning doctrine — gnostoj. It is also a word which means “doctrinal” in the adjective form — Romans 1:19. Then there is a word in Acts 26:3, gnosthj, which means an expert in doctrine.

            A second area of Greek words is logoj which means speech, word, thinking, and doctrine. In Hebrews 6:1 logoj means doctrine.

            A third Greek area is didaxh which means the act of teaching or what is taught — Matthew 7:28; 22:33; Mark 1:22; 1 Corinthians 14:6; 2 Timothy 4:2; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 2:14.

            There is another word, didaskalia, which is used for what is taught or doctrinal teaching — Matthew 15:9; Titus 1:9; 2:7,10,11.

            3. Bible doctrine is the heritage or the legacy of the royal family of God — Psalm 138:2. The word “worship” here is the hithpael [reflexive] imperfect of shachah, and the reflexive concept means your own individual relationship with the Lord expressed in terms of worship, and it demands Bible doctrine in the soul. It should be translated “I myself will worship.”

            “toward the temple of your holiness” — this refers to heaven as the real holy of holies; the word “praise” is in the hiphil stem of jadah and it has the concept of celebration because of real appreciation; the word “for” is a causal waw meaning “because”; and the word “loving-kindness” is chesedh meaning ‘grace.’ It should be translated “and celebrate your person because of your grace.” Grace is the basis for true celebration.

            “and for thy truth” — the word emeth means doctrine. So there are two reasons for celebration: grace and doctrine.

            “because you have magnified” — the hiphil perfect of gadal which means to magnify to the utmost; “thy word” — doctrinal teaching; “above your reputation” — more important than the reputation of God is the doctrine of God is what this passage is saying.

            Translation: “I myself will worship toward the temple of your holiness [heaven], and celebrate your person [the supergrace believer occupied with Christ] because of your grace and because of your doctrine; because you have magnified your doctrinal teaching over your reputation.”

            Doctrinal communication is the means of glorifying God, has always been the means of tactical victory in the angelic conflict. Doctrinal teaching (ICE) is the means of establishing residency of doctrine in the soul. Maximum resident doctrine means not only supergrace status but the normal function of the royal priesthood of the believer in this dispensation.

            4. Our heritage of doctrine was perpetuated by the Lord Jesus Christ in His dying words on the cross. The seventh and last recorded utterance of the Lord was mentioned in His dying breath where He made doctrine the spiritual legacy of the royal family. By comparing Luke 23:46 with Psalm 31:5 we have exactly what our Lord said: “Into your hands, O Father, I deposit my spirit; for you have delivered me, O Jehovah, God of doctrine.” The last phrase indicates that He was delivered in His humanity buy the doctrine resident in His own soul.

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 5. Bible doctrine preexisted the human race. Proverbs 8 records how Bible doctrine was with God in eternity past before the creation of the universe.

            6. Therefore attitude toward doctrine determines whether the believer is blessed or disciplined in time — Proverbs 8:33-36.

            7. Therefore doctrine is the basis for the distribution of supergrace blessings. The daily function of GAP means maximum doctrine in the soul. This is following the colours to the high ground of supergrace, and is the subject of Isaiah 53:12. The plunder of victory is paragraph SG2, supergrace blessings in time. “The many” anticipates the royal family of God in time; “the great ones” are the supergrace believers of the royal family.

            8. Doctrine is the basis for the distribution of surpassing grace blessings in eternity. This is determined by comparing Hebrews 11:9,10 with verse 13, or James 1:25 with 2:12,13.

            9. There is a principle that comes out of this. For the believer who reaches supergrace Bible doctrine is more real than empirical knowledge — 2 Peter 2:12-21. If there is a conflict between what you see, what you hear, what you smell, what you taste, or what you think and what Bible doctrine says, Bible doctrine is more real and Bible doctrine is right. Bible doctrine is the criterion for the royal family of God.

            10. Lack of Bible doctrine destroys a nation — Hosea 4:1-6.

            11. Bible doctrine is part of the principle of living grace for phase two. Under living grace God provides spiritual and temporal factors to keep you alive in time.

            12. The plan of God is both advanced and vindicated through Bible doctrine. Psalm 51:4.

            13. The pastor or communicator of doctrine establishes the balance of residency in the soul of the believer.

            14. Therefore the importance of the consistency in the function of GAP — Hebrews 10:25. A warning about negative volition is given in Hebrews 10:35. Perseverance of positive volition is taught in Hebrews 10:36; Colossians 2:6,7.

            15. The results of doctrine resident in the soul are several:

                        a) Doctrine produces confidence in life — Job 5:24-27; 2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Hebrews 10:35.

                        b) Doctrine produces the divine viewpoint of life and therefore mental attitude dynamics — Isaiah 55:7-9; 2 Corinthians 10:5.

                        c) Bible doctrine orients the believer to the plan of God — Isaiah 26:3,4; Romans 8:28.

                        d) Bible Doctrine produces stability of soul — James 1:8.

                        e) Bible doctrine is the basis for divine guidance and the execution of the will of God — Romans 12:2,3.

                        f) Bible doctrine leads to occupation with Christ and maximum capacity for category #1 love — Philippians 3:10; Ephesians 3:19; Hebrews 12:2,3.

                        g) Bible doctrine attains and holds the supergrace status — Philippians 3:12-14.

                        h) Bible doctrine attains surpassing grace blessing for eternity — Hebrews 11:9,10,13; James 1:25 cf. 2:12,13.

            16. The synonyms for Bible doctrine resident in the soul.

                        a) The central control synonym — Ephesians 6:10. “Be strong in the Lord by means of the inner rule [resident doctrine] of his endowed power.”

                        b) The crucifixion synonym — Matthew 10:38; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23; 14:27: “Take up your cross and follow me.” To pick up or take up your cross means to run counter to what people are usually doing in your day, to run counter to what your family thinks, etc.

                        c) The priestly synonym — Hebrews 13:10, the construction of the altar in the soul.

                        d) The building synonym — Ephesians 4:12,16, the construction of the ECS (Edification Complex of the Soul).

                        e) The theological synonym — James 4:6, supergrace.

                        f) The military synonym — Ephesians 6:11.

                        g) Language synonyms (see point 2).

                        h) The time synonym — redeeming the time, Ephesians 5:16-18.

                        i) The salt synonym — Matthew 5:13; Mark 9:50; Luke 14:34; Colossians 4:6.

 

[Soldier4Christ]

You cannot read the Bible for yourself, you cannot memorise it and grow up. All of this requires the function of a pastor-teacher who is released for the sole objective of studying and teaching, studying and teaching.

So it is worthless to study the Bible?

On proverbs 3:5 I see that you posted a lot of information of what men think that the words of the entire chapter means in English but you still did not answer my question completely. Where does understanding come from?

I'll give you a hint: It is not from the Bible nor is it from man explaining what the Bible says. Mat 13:13-16 Eph 1:8-18

[Shammu]

I do understand what you are saying, what I am trying to say is I do not, nor will ever believe what you guys believe regarding pastor teachers, I know what the bible say's all about them.  I have seen both sides of the coin, and I know which side is real and true.  There is a reason for acedemic training and teachings, until you have listened to what I have listened to you cannot say, for the proof is in the writings, the proof is in the teachings.  I ran across this very same subject matter with christians for years, and I just say to myself "They do not understand!"   That is where I leave it.

With this linssue, you are judging others.  Have you ever read any of my Bible studies?? I will almost lay odds, you haven't.

[linssue55]

So it is worthless to study the Bible?

On proverbs 3:5 I see that you posted a lot of information of what men think that the words of the entire chapter means in English but you still did not answer my question completely. Where does understanding come from?

I'll give you a hint: It is not from the Bible nor is it from man explaining what the Bible says. Mat 13:13-16 Eph 1:8-18

Ok, I will tell you like it is.  Being filled with the spirit, and at that time what we learn from the spirit is; ....... patience, forgiveness, love, agape and phileo love, not gossiping, not maligning, being considerate, understanding all of the things that makes us grow in the relam of love etc., etc., etc.  We do everything oppisite when carnal.  Now if I have a human IQ of (lets pretend) 110 in carnality, then I name my sins 1 John 1:9 (rebound), now I am in fellowship and am working with spiritual IQ now.  Just because the spirit is no longer being grieved does not mean my IQ has gone up to 150.  The spirit teaches us the things of the spirit, the supernatural things, it does NOT make us smarter in "All of the sudden we know exactly what every word in the bible means according to the original languages!"  The spirit does not work that way, even a babe in christ know's this....we all of the sudden don't become this super genius and are all of the sudden academicaly smarter any greater then when we were carnal.   We can say we learn from the spirit, of course we do, but "THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT,"  we do not learn the acedemic things at any greater rate or understanding then we did before in sin.  If we choose to learn academically, this takes positive volition on our part, being filled so it can become epignosis doctrine, this is where the spirit comes in acedemically, IT transfers the doctrine into epignosis this is the learning and the teaching that the spirit gives us.

So you don't like what I have said about all should know ICE to better understand the words of the Lord, if you think you can LEARN any better without the bible then throw it away.  I will stick to what I KNOW is true, from THE ANCIENT WORDS of God. I am getting very tired of christians that do not have the acedemic training coming down on me for having it.  I could show you scripture after scripture and you would still believe the way you do now because your negative volition will not allow even the possiblity of even investigating.  I am not upset with you or anybody if they choose to do it there way, I DON"T CARE!, it is none of my business  You have read what I posted, and if you don't agree, then DON"T agree, but I am sorely tired of going around and around, giving scripture on scripture on scripture, been there done that and I will (free will ) NO LONGER do it!  This has become so very OLD.  The only one in this life we have to justify ourselves to is the Lord (unless we're married).  I am moving on from this topic with you, for you do not want to know, not really.  Our emotions and volition often gets in the way of the truth and I am too tired to continue with you.  "We must decrease and HE must increase."  The Lord bless you and keep you.......I love all of my fellow believers, and the way they worship is TRULY between them and the Lord, I do not wish to step on anyone's toes, that is not my job nor my wish.

Grace and Peace........

[linssue55]

The I.C.E. Principle


I.C.E. is an acronym made up of the three concepts;

"Isogogics"; Study of historical subjects pertaining to scripture.

"Categorical": Individual doctrines.

"Exegesis": Interpreting the scriptures, from the original, in the old languages.

Most Christians have never heard of these practices in relation to Bible teaching, and the vast majority of the clergymen in America deign to either acquire the weighty academic training, nor engage in such exhaustive scriptural analysis, to benefit their congregations. They subscribe to the popular ethic of the day; programs, social groups, counseling and entertainment. Most ministers read commentaries of other theologians and pass them on to their churches, but have not had an original thought for years.

It may surprise the reader to learn that I.C.E. was once common in America, not the acronym, but the principles. Today very few seminaries even teach these subjects in context, and prepare students to dig out the substance of God's Word on their own, without depending on extraneous sources.

The purpose for this process should be crystal clear; to prevent the perpetuation of erroneous translations and bogus concepts that have been handed down for generations. Institutionalized religions all suffer from this malaise, which is the primary reason that God ordained independent local churches that operate autonomously of any authority higher than the Pastor.

When I allude to a "prepared Pastor" I refer to a man with an extensive education in the Koine Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic languages, in addition to a minor in ancient history and four years in a seminary to learn his theology. The men who are willing to undergo this rigorous regimen are few and far between.

No professional field is so demanding as the ministry, with the few exceptions of perhaps brain surgery or nuclear physicist. From the standpoint of importance, however, the teaching of God's Word is by far the most critical pursuit in the human race, for by it we are drawn near to God and trained in the spiritual skills that comprise the victorious spiritual life.

The Communication Gift

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he
led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. And
he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,
evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the
perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:8, 11 & 12

The words "pastor and teacher" are mistranslated in this passage. The "and" is the Greek hendiades, or hyphen, which links two words into a single concept. "Pastor" is the word for authority, thus linking the principles of leadership and instruction in one function, with one purpose... to "edify the body of Christ", which is one of the many terms used to describe the believers in the Church Age. The "body" refers, more specifically, to us as the future "Bride of Christ", the body being the betrothed before ritual cleansing, and the bride being acceptable to the groom, bathed and dressed in spotless raiment.

The Pastor-Teacher's role is one of enlightenment, which demands his complete devotion. He is given the gift by The Holy Spirit, Whom assigned to each of us a spiritual gift at salvation. Please note, the Pastor-Teacher is not the manager of a lonely hearts club, a marriage counselor, psychologist or babysitter.

God the Holy Spirit delegated every gift that fills the needs of the independent local church; Administration; given to men who are called to serve as deacons, with skills in accounting (The Pastor never get's involved with money), organization, leadership, and the other requirements of the church as they may be necessary.

There is a gift of refreshments, uplifting commentary which is designed to stimulate the resident doctrine in the believer's soul, but not necessarily teach. This gift excites the emotion as an "appreciator" of God's Word.

There is the gift of helps that calls believers to care for others, visit them in the hospital, or fulfill some other need. There is a gift of prayer, the vital skill of prolonged petition for the Pastor, the congregation, the nation, etc.

But the Pastor-Teacher devotes his full energies to studying and teaching, digging out the mysteries of God's Word and imparting them to his "flock" in an academic setting. Not elaborate rituals, no social engineering, programs, entertainment committees. The congregation meet to sit silently and hear the Word, themselves filled with The Holy Spirit, and deposit the Mind of Christ in their souls.

(cont)


 

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Isogogics

The first law of Hermeneutics, the science of Biblical criticism, is that the Word must be examined in the light of the historical setting in which it was written; the prevailing social conditions, culture, idiom, and historical events. Much of the meaning of the original canon is only gleaned by an extensive knowledge of history.

Take Paul's analogy the "full armor of God", for example. Paul was well versed in Roman military tradition and equipment, as he was under house arrest for 3 years, all told. He taught the Christian spiritual life in this analogy, comparing each article of the Roman uniform and battle dress to an aspect of the Christian life. Any Pastor who teaches this subject accurately must be conversant in Roman culture.

Categories

As the Pastor progresses through a passage he will encounter major doctrines which are referred to in passing, such as Soteriology, the doctrine of the work of Christ. He must pause, in such a case, and give the congregation the detailed doctrine, propitiation, redemption, sanctification, then proceed on.

In this way the flock under his ministry assimilate the Word gradually until they have completed the Mind of Christ in their souls.

Exegesis

The Pastor spends thousands of hours pouring over the original texts of the scripture, the dead sea scrolls, Codex Aleph, and many other writings discovered over the centuries. His knowledge of the languages in which the autograph was written is absolutely NECESSARY to "rightly divide the Word of Truth".

The English language is a very poor instrument of expression compared to the Koine Greek of Alexander's time. The Greek language is an inflective, rather than a reflective language, and can say more in one sentence that English can in a paragraph.

There were also many dialects of Greek used in various passages of the Bible; Doric, Classical, Koine, and others. The Pastor must master them all.

Idiom also played a major role in scriptural composition. In this context, the meaning of most early colloquialisms has been obscured, almost lost, but ardent study can still find and apply them. Many subtle nuances of scripture are only revealed by a knowledge of idiom.

This then is the system that God ordained for the "edifying of the body of Christ", not massive worldwide religions, impressive ceremonies that mean nothing, stained glass cathedrals and golden chalices. These are the accoutrements of human splendor, but they are meaningless to God.


 


 

[Soldier4Christ]

Ok, I will tell you like it is.

Ok sister, I too will tell you how it is. I AM NOT putting down the method of ICE. In fact I am telling you that I think it is a great way to study the Bible. If you are going to continue to try to teach others then you need to ask the Lord for patience in dealing with and in answering those that do not necessarily understand what is being said and be ready to answer thewir questions in a manner that they can understand. You do not give meat to someone that is barely able to handle milk. That is the essence of ICE  ....  to be able to better explain the word of God. I am not saying this to put you down but rather in love as a brother that is trying to help you out.

we do not learn the acedemic things at any greater rate or understanding then we did before in sin. 

This part I do disagree with somewhat. We should not put such restrictions on the Holy Spirit. He will open our eyes and reveal things to us as he determines that we need to know in accordance to God's will. If His purpose for us is to know a certain thing then He will improve our ability to learn that thing. This is what I was saying about those that are educationally handicapped. A person not able to learn academically until the Spirit opens their eyes to it. No we don't become super genius' but we do see things and learn things that we could not do so before.

IT transfers the doctrine into epignosis this is the learning and the teaching that the spirit gives us.

Not IT but rather He transfers Biblical knowledge into understanding of this knowledge or as the Bible says "opens our eyes".

So you don't like what I have said about all should know ICE to better understand the words of the Lord, if you think you can LEARN any better without the bible then throw it away.

This is not what I was saying. I was saying that the Bible, even in it's English version, is worthy of study. As we are told  ......   "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" No, the Bible should not be "thrown away" and that includes the English versions, Spanish versions, and all other language versions.

I am moving on from this topic with you, for you do not want to know, not really.  Our emotions and volition often gets in the way of the truth and I am too tired to continue with you.  "We must decrease and HE must increase."  The Lord bless you and keep you.......I love all of my fellow believers, and the way they worship is TRULY between them and the Lord, I do not wish to step on anyone's toes, that is not my job nor my wish.

I am sorry that you feel that way as I believe that people can learn greatly from you as long as you have the patience to answer their questions and amplify on the portions that they do not understand, the portions that the Spirit has not opened their eyes on. Sometimes this requires putting things in words they can assimilate, not just cut and paste the ICE doctrine, an interchabge, a conversation if you will. As you even said someone to quide them through the material and not just read it on their own. For some do not learn just by reading.

As I said before I am interested in the ICE method. I am currently going through the materials on the link that you provided and I have been learning.

Sister, may the Lord bless you in your efforts and use you according to His purposes.

[Amorus]

I'll try to chime in again, if no one minds.  I think this is an excellent discussion, but please, it does not do anyone any good to make a point by stating such things as quoted below.  I think there is a lot to be learned from this discussion. Academically I feel we should challenge new ideas, regardless of how old they are to the person who is trying to support them.  If you feel that one must have a certain background to challenge these thoughts, then by all means say so.  But please post that in the beginning of your lesson so those whose paper qualifications, who you feel are not up to par, do not post their thoughts. And Sister, since you have the academic background, I probably would have figured your thoughts would be challenged. I remember in my own study a very important person quoted "the wise man questions the wisdom of others because he questions his own, the foolish man because it is different from his own."  No, not a biblical quote, and maybe a bit philosophical, but one I remembered for a long time. Yes, the deeper we dive into academics the more "dissertations" we must defend, regardless of who is asking the questions. Sister, may you never grow tired of learning about or discussion the Lord.  Peace to all of you and above all else, blessings!
-Am-

So you don't like what I have said about all should know ICE to better understand the words of the Lord, if you think you can LEARN any better without the bible then throw it away.  I will stick to what I KNOW is true, from THE ANCIENT WORDS of God. I am getting very tired of Christians that do not have the academic training coming down on me for having it.  I could show you scripture after scripture and you would still believe the way you do now because your negative volition will not allow even the possibility of even investigating.  I am not upset with you or anybody if they choose to do it there way, I DON"T CARE!, it is none of my business  You have read what I posted, and if you don't agree, then DON"T agree, but I am sorely tired of going around and around, giving scripture on scripture on scripture, been there done that and I will (free will ) NO LONGER do it!  This has become so very OLD.  The only one in this life we have to justify ourselves to is the Lord (unless we're married).  I am moving on from this topic with you, for you do not want to know, not really.  Our emotions and volition often gets in the way of the truth and I am too tired to continue with you.  "We must decrease and HE must increase."  The Lord bless you and keep you.......I love all of my fellow believers, and the way they worship is TRULY between them and the Lord, I do not wish to step on anyone's toes, that is not my job nor my wish.

Grace and Peace........[/size]

[linssue55]

Ok sister, I too will tell you how it is. I AM NOT putting down the method of ICE. In fact I am telling you that I think it is a great way to study the Bible. If you are going to continue to try to teach others then you need to ask the Lord for patience in dealing with and in answering those that do not necessarily understand what is being said and be ready to answer their questions in a manner that they can understand. You do not give meat to someone that is barely able to handle milk. That is the essence of ICE  ....  to be able to better explain the word of God. I am not saying this to put you down but rather in love as a brother that is trying to help you out.


I have a multitude of patience, for someone that really wants to know, always have.  But I am sorry your post's do not come out that way.  Like I said I have been down this road so very many times, and I do not believe the Lord's word has to be justified.  The Lord also say's "walk away after the second admonition (can't remember the verse, but I'll find it)."  I have decades of learning and this is so VERY involved you have no idea, there are things I can never tell you because I am just a student, a women, and certainly do not have the gift.  Like I said, it is EXTREMELY involved.  You just seem to rebuke everything I post, so I decided to give up, which is scriptural.



This part  I do disagree with somewhat. We should not put such restrictions on the Holy Spirit. He will open our eyes and reveal things to us as he determines that we need to know in accordance to God's will. If His purpose for us is to know a certain thing then He will improve our ability to learn that thing. This is what I was saying about those that are educationally handicapped. A person not able to learn academically until the Spirit opens their eyes to it. No we don't become super genius' but we do see things and learn things that we could not do so before.



You mentioned nothing of educationally handicapped in any of your post's, just rebuking you see.  The Holy Spirit teaches us nothing that is against our free will, if we don't want it then He is a gentlemen and also walks away, and just continues to tap His foot.  He has given much informational truth here about pastor teacher's, but He has also read the post's and see's the negativity.  I know that you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink, the same with doctrine, even the Lord doesn't force it on us, and neither will I.



Not IT but rather He transfers Biblical knowledge into understanding of this knowledge or as the Bible says "opens our eyes". 



This is the epignosis I have been talking about.  Yes He does, IF we are open to it.  Often He will do it with a swift kick up the backside.



This is not what I was saying. I was saying that the Bible, even in it's English version, is worthy of study. As we are told  ......   "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" No, the Bible should not be "thrown away" and that includes the English versions, Spanish versions, and all other language versions. 


I have a forty year old bible that is in shreds, I will never throw it away,...... that was a medifore.  Yes but English wasn't spoken then, and none of them spoke English....."This is my whole point"!  Do you have any idea how the languages have changed throughout the century's?, that is why the bible MUST be taught from the ancient languages, IN the time in which it was written, because so VERY MUCH has been lost and mis-translated, this is my entire point.  I do not trust the English bible's for learning, it has the basics and that is all, I WANT the EXACT words, not some watered down version, nor the totally wrong interpretation of it.  I want to live inside of the Lord's head and heart, therefore I HAVE to know the exact words, I cannot settle for less, or I will not settle for less, He is way too important to me.


I am sorry that you feel that way as I believe that people can learn greatly from you as long as you have the patience to answer their questions and amplify on the portions that they do not understand, the portions that the Spirit has not opened their eyes on. Sometimes this requires putting things in words they can assimilate, not just cut and paste the ICE doctrine, an interchangeable, a conversation if you will. As you even said someone to quide them through the material and not just read it on their own. For some do not learn just by reading.



I have loads of patience, but I am very objective also (which we all need to be) and I will not intrude on anyone's privacy of the priesthood, there is MUCH said about privacy from the bible, and "I" will respect the written word.  I will only give so much, especially if the person show's  sign's of negativity, then the holy spirit will take over, IF the person let's him?  This is why I walked away, not from the lack of patience or love for that matter.  By the way every single thing I have posted comes from my folders, originally taken from my handndwritten notes, that also many (my congregation) have taken down from our teachings of the originals over the decades.  We have spent thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands of hours in listening and study and taking notes, then we all transferred our handwritten notes (typed them), and we all put them together categorically and we have our own private folder where we have transferred these decades of notes to it, and we all use this info. to pass on to others and of course for ourselves. They are copied and pasted after we have typed them in from our own notes, but they are all our's, from our academic study, and there is over 50 years of study in our private folder.   


As I said before I am interested in the ICE method. I am currently going through the materials on the link that you provided and I have been learning.



Like you said and it is true a baby cannot eat meat, a person must start with the basics in doctrine which is supplied by my church. I am certainly not the one to teach it.

Sister, may the Lord bless you in your efforts and use you according to His purposes.

Grace and peace to you......

[linssue55]

I'll try to chime in again, if no one minds.  I think this is an excellent discussion, but please, it does not do anyone any good to make a point by stating such things as quoted below.  I think there is a lot to be learned from this discussion. Academically I feel we should challenge new ideas, regardless of how old they are to the person who is trying to support them.  If you feel that one must have a certain background to challenge these thoughts, then by all means say so.  But please post that in the beginning of your lesson so those whose paper qualifications, who you feel are not up to par, do not post their thoughts. And Sister, since you have the academic background, I probably would have figured your thoughts would be challenged. I remember in my own study a very important person quoted "the wise man questions the wisdom of others because he questions his own, the foolish man because it is different from his own."  No, not a biblical quote, and maybe a bit philosophical, but one I remembered for a long time. Yes, the deeper we dive into academics the more "dissertations" we must defend, regardless of who is asking the questions. Sister, may you never grow tired of learning about or discussion the Lord.  Peace to all of you and above all else, blessings!



Am-

A very important doctrine must be applied here, the PRIVACY of the priesthood, and when there is too much negativity, we are COMMANDED to walk away, and that is what I did, for I saw nothing but opposition.  I have loads of patience, but I am also smart enough to go about my own business too.  The Lord's doesn't like fools (anthropopathism) that continually takes opposition, for even he can't force feed.

Grace and Peace to you.....-

[Amorus]

Very well Sister,
Grace and peace to you as well! (and yes, I do mean that sincerely)
-Am-

[Soldier4Christ]

You mentioned nothing of educationally handicapped in any of your post's, just rebuking you see.

I see that you didn't read all of my posts then because I did ..... post # 45 in this thread.

Do you have any idea how the languages have changed throughout the century's?

Yes I do. I have studied linguitics quite thoroughly. They have changed tremendously just in the time from when the scriptures were first written up to the time of the oldest manuscripts that we have available.

Like you said and it is true a baby cannot eat meat, a person must start with the basics in doctrine which is supplied by my church. I am certainly not the one to teach it.

I am not new to studying the Scriptures in the ancient languages. I have done so for many, many years. Am I proficient in it?  ... I am sure that there are many that are more so than I. If you were to check back through some of my posts on here you would see that.

[linssue55]

I see that you didn't read all of my posts then because I did ..... post # 45 in this thread.

I have noticed with this site too that I also should have mentioned, that I do not recieve all the notifications when someone posts, so forgive me then, for that was one I did not recieve.

Grace and peace.....