”The Church that I work for and that I believe is the correct church of Jesus"

Now don't start blamimg me for your lack of common sense.

And you say the gates of hell will not prevail against the RCC! Yet, if an apostate church rules the catholic people in place of the RCC (which is a false church) then the gates of hell have surly prevailed by your own admission.

Even Catholic authorities teach that the RCC is the whore of Babylon.
It’s amazing how Catholics condemn Dave hunt and Hislop when your own teaches say the same thing.

You know Kramer is not teaching that because you tried this in another post and I showed you how you were mistaken there too.

Kramer is saying that there is the possibility that there will be a religious body in Rome that could fulfill the endtimes symbolism of the woman on the beast.  He never says nor did he believe it would be the Catholic Church.  So no the Church's own teaching nor even that of one of its theologians (which is not anything like the official church's teachings) teach that the Church is the Whore of Babylon.

That is just your purposely misrepresented interpretation to support your hatred for the Church.

Wrong! once again Michael.

"And whichever city it shall be, it will obviously be one that was once entirely Catholic, apostatized from the true faith and became the capital of the kingdom that leads all nations into Antichrist-worship."

Even Catholic authorities teach that the RCC is the whore of Babylon.

THE BOOK OF DESTINY  
Page 383

VII. THE GREAT HARLOT AND THE BEAST


1. DESCRIPTION OF BABYLON, The GREAT HARLOT.


Chapter XVII.

Verses 1-6.
Verses 1 and 2

   The condemnation of Great Babylon is so important that it calls for a special treatise. One of the angels, probably the one who poured out the seventh bowl, reveals her destiny to the Seer enabling him to give a graphic description of her judgment. His word invites St. John to his direction so that he might witness the execution of the judgment from a favorable view point. Her annihilation is decreed.
   A harlot is given to fornication. Ezechiel (XXIII.) calls Israel and Juda harlots, because they practiced the idolatry of the pagan nations bordering on Israel. Fornication and adultery in prophetical language mean apostasy from the true faith and from God. Hence this GREAT harlot is a city whose apostasy from the true faith is a monstrous thing. This may point to Rome. Rome is the Holy city of Christ, the center of His eternal kingdom, as Jerusalem was the center of theocracy. And the apostasy of this city, and her becoming the head of an empire that would lead all possible nations and peoples into antichrist-worship would indeed merit for her the title of THE GREAT HARLOT. The apostles called ancient Rome “Babylon” 1 Peter V. 13). So the conclusion is near that the great harlot of the future shall be Rome. However, in this narration, St. John uses ancient pagan Rome as the model for his portrait of Babylon of the future. And whichever city it shall be, it will obviously be one that was once entirely Catholic, apostatized from the true faith and became the capital of the kingdom that leads all nations into Antichrist-worship.


   THE BOOK OF DESTINY   403

   The name of the city is not given, but verse one, “the great harlot”, which means the great apostate, and verse five, “Babylon, the mother of fornications”, again the great apostate, point to Rome as the city spoken of. Rome has been the center and headquarters of the messianic kingdom throughout New Testament times. If that city should apostatize and become the center of all antichristian activity, it would merit the titles of adulteress and harlot given to Jerusalem by the prophets for its apostasy from God and its practice of idolatry and superstition.
   This chapter refutes the whole contention that the “beast” is the emperor of Rome, Nero or Domitian.. The empire procured worship for the emperor. In that way the empire would be the false prophet, who shall he cast alive into the pool of fire (XIX. 20). Again the horns lend their power to the beast to destroy the city. Neither an emperor or the empire ever did or desired this. The beast shall be cast alive into the pool of fire, hence it could not be the empire; only the emperor could be thus punished. And there is no record of any emperor having been seized alive and visibly hurled into hell. It is therefore plainly absurd to apply this chapter to Roman times, if anyone expects a reasonable explanation for it. It plainly concerns itself with an unfulfilled prophecy that is waiting for the time appointed by almighty God.


394   THE BOOK OF DESTINY

   The seven heads represent mountains which again mean kings and in turn symbolize dynasties or empires. The mountains allude to the seven hills upon which ancient Rome was built but are symbols of kings and kingdoms.

It’s amazing how Catholics condemn Dave hunt and Hislop when your own teaches say the same thing.

Quote from Michael,

“This is the type of erroneous thinking that comes from building doctrine on one verses in isolation from the rest of scripture.

All you have to do is look at one more verse to see that your interpretation is wrong.

1John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

See, this verse cannot be contrary to the verse you quote so the only possible explanation is that the verse you quote (though fully true) is only telling part of the story.  We get more of the story in 1 John 3:23 where is says we must believe AND love. “

Actually, this demonstrates your lack of understanding of 1 John 3:23. You are reading into the verse that these things are conditions of salvation, but nowhere in the context does it state such a thing. This verse is simply stating commands of Christ which by the way are more than these two. Now it is true that if you obey the first command then a s a result one would be saved. Also, it is true that if one is truly saved He will obey Jesus and love one. The only condition the Bible places for salvation is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ regardless the words used to describe this action.

Quote from Michael,

"All of your terms  - “listen to it, believe it, accept it, receive it” are all acts of man – they show we must actively do works before we even have a true faith."

Our believing is God's work.

Joh 6:28  "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Continued.

 
Notice verse 5 talking about the love of God being perfected in a believer and in verse 10 the emphasis on loving a brother.

1Jo 3:22 “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”
 
In verse 23 the Lord spells out exactly what His commandments are, “That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” There is nothing even remotely suggesting that He is talking about the law Moses in these verses rather the emphasis is the law of love.

I am often surprised by law keepers lack of understanding of the book of Hebrews. To rightly understand the book of Hebrews one must see that it is a comparison of the Old Covenant (which is the law of Moses starting with the Ten Commandments) with the New Covenant. One of the key words to pay attention to in Hebrews is the word “better” which is used numerous times in reference of the New Covenant being better than the Old. The book of Hebrews deals with many of the errors that law keepers so often teach. One common error of the law keepers is that they believe that a person is drawn closer to God in their attempts at keeping the law of Moses. Yet, what they fail to realize in their foolish zeal of the law of Moses, is that the law of Moses never had the power to make a person right with God.

Heb 7:18 “For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”
 
Verse 18 is talking about the Old Covenant being annulled. The Greek word used for disannulling means:
athetē?sis
ath-et'-ay-sis
From G114; cancellation (literally or figuratively): - disannulling, put away.
It is interesting that God’s Word says that the Old Covenant has been canceled yet the law keepers continue to act as if it is still in effect. Who is right, God who cannot lie, or the law keepers who not only can lie but be deceived as well? If God says the Old Covenant is cancelled then it is cancelled regardless of what any man my say. Law keepers think that their feeble attempt at keeping the law of Moses will draw them closer, and make them more pleasing, to God. Yet, verse 18 claims that the law could not make anything perfect, nor could it draw them closer to God. That is why the New Covenant which is referred to as “the bringing in of a better hope” was made. The New Covenant was made in the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and it is by that precious blood that we are drawn closer to God, not the law of Moses.

Hebrews 8 says that the Old Covenant is obsolete and vanishing away.

Heb 8:13 “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”
 
The Greek word for old means obsolete or worn out. Hebrews 10 goes on with this thought.

Heb 10:7 “Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9  Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11  And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”

Here Jesus takes away the first (old) Covenant that He may establish the Second (New). According to Hebrews the Old Covenant has been cancelled made obsolete and replaced by the New Covenant. Yet the law keepers would have you believe that the Old Covenant (which is the law of Moses starting with the Ten Commandments) is still in effect. If this is true then it has not been cancelled, made obsolete or replaced by the New Covenant as the book of Hebrews declare. Again, who is telling the truth, God who cannot lie, or the law keepers who can?

2 Cor. 3:6 “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.  7  But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:  8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?  9  For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.  11  For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.  12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  13  And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:  14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.  15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.  16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.  17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.  18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 3 is talking specifically about the Ten Commandments (verses 7) in comparison to the New Covenant. Paul says in verse 3 that they are ministers of the New Covenant (new testament) which is not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit.  The Ten Commandments are not part of the gospel, the gospel and the Ten Commandments are opposed to each other so that they cannot be mixed. The Ten Commandments brought forth death and condemnation while the gospel of the New Covenant brought fort life and a clear conscience before God.

Notice verse 7 refers to the Ten Commandments as a ministry of death, not one of life, and verse nine says the Ten Commandments were a ministry of condemnation, not one that would clear a guilty conscience. I am amazed that some people insist upon putting themselves and others under a ministry of death and condemnation. Why would anyone who is sane want to be under a covenant that could only condemn and kill them in the first place? Are they under a false delusion that a ministry of death and condemnation is able to bring them life and a clear conscience before God? No wonder the apostles, elders and brethren of Jerusalem said it was the subverters of souls that taught that Christians are to keep the law of Moses Acts 15:24).

Verse 11 clearly teaches that the Ten Commandments are done away with and that the New Covenant is what remains. The so-called law keepers cannot explain verse 11. Verse 11 says that the Ten Commandments are done away with and the so-called law keepers say it is not. Who’s lying, the so-called law keepers, or God? I will give a little hint it’s not God. Verse 13 declares that the Ten Commandments are abolished, how can a Christian be subject to something that is abolished and no longer in force? The reason some people insist that the Ten Commandments are in force today is explained in this chapter as well. It’s because they are blind by a vail upon their heart in their understanding of the Old Testament (verse 15). In other words they don’t even understand the purpose of the Old Covenant and like the unbelieving Jews they think that their righteousness is by the deeds of the law (Rom.9:30-33). This vail will only be removed when they repent by turning their hearts away from the ministry of death and condemnation to the cross of Jesus Christ where they will find life and a clear conscience before God.

Like the self righteous Pharisees of old, today’s subverters of souls think that they are serving God when they teach their false gospel of works based salvation. Like the Pharisees of old, they lead souls to hell rather than heaven.

Matt. 23:13 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.  14  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.  15  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

Strong words from our beloved Lord Himself. Those who teach that Christians must keep the law of Moses are enemies of the cross and wether they realize it or not they help promote Satan’s deadliest work of blinding mens eyes to the light of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 4:3 “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:  4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

Pilgrim

Continued.

Ex. 19:5 says “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people:” The result of this covenant was to make Israel a “peculiar treasure unto me above all people.” This is important to grasp because it too means that the Ten Commandments were given ONLY to the children of Israel. If the Ten Commandments were given to the gentile nations and people as well then verse 5 would not be true. The covenant God made with Israel made them distinct and separate from all other nations and people in the world which would not be the case if this covenant was for all people.


The Bible clearly teaches in many places that a Christian is not under the law of Moses. Those who insist that we are under the law of Moses mistakenly claim that without the law of Moses you give a licenses to sin. What they don’t realize is that just because Christians are not under the law of Moses doesn’t mean they are without divine law. Think about it for a moment, people from Adam to Moses were without the law of Moses, yet God gave them commands to follow as previously shown above. Some of the laws given to those from Adam to Moses were similar to those given in the Mosaic law, such as murder. Yet others were complete opposites such as the eating of clean and unclean animals. They were two different laws to govern two different groups of people. The same is true today, Christians are not under the law of Moses, they are under the law of Christ which is love. Therefore the divine law for Christians is the law of love. If we love God as we should then we would never sin against Him. If we love our neighbors and enemies as we should then we would never sin against them. The law of love is far superior to the law of Moses. The law of Moses was an external list of 613 do’s and don’t which one could be forced to follow to a certain degree even if their heart was not in it. On the other hand the law of love covers every conceivable sin one can commit and those who obey do so from the heart because true love comes from the heart. This is why love is the greatest law and fulfills the law and the prophets. Christians do not commit murder, adultery, lies etc. because it is against the law of love, not because it is a violation of the Mosaic law. We obey righteousness because we are under the law of Christ, not as incorrectly claimed by some that we are under the law of Moses.

The apostle Paul had to defend against the charge that to be without the law of Moses was a license to sin in the book of Romans.

Rom. 6:1 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?  2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”

Because Paul taught that one is saved by grace through faith rather than law keeping his enemies accused him of teaching that a Christian had a free license to sin. Paul gave the death blow to that argument in verse 1 of Romans 6. He went on to say:

Rom. 6:15 “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.  16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?  17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.  18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”

Can God’s Word get any clearer that we are not under law but under grace (verse 15)? And can God’s Word get any clearer that because were are under grace and not the law that this is not a license for free sinning? True Christians do not practice sin because they follow the law of love which comes from the heart. Notice Paul says in verse 17 “but ye have obeyed from the heart”. Those who claims to be saved and continue living a life full of sin are false professors and their actions prove that they are still  servants of sin rather than a servants of righteousness just as the above verses declare. Those who are truly saved obey from the heart out of love for God and mankind. As a result their righteousness far exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees who were trying to be righteous by the deeds of the law.

Mat 5:20 “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

Those who insist that Christians are under the law of Moses apparently do not understand what a great burden this is. In Acts 15 the apostle Peter is speaking against the law keepers and had this to say about the law of Moses.

This is what the law keepers said:

Acts 15:5 “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.”

And here is what Peter said:

Acts 15:10 “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”

Peter says that the law of Moses was an unbearable burden that neither they or their fathers were able to bear. If the apostles themselves could not bear the law of Moses what chance do we have? Peter said that those who taught that Christian have to keep the law of Moses were tempting God, a very serious sin. Those who teach that Christians have to keep the law of Moses are siding with the Pharisees of verse 6 and those who temp God (verse 10) and those who subvert souls (verse 24):

Acts 15:23 “And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:  24  Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:”

Notice that verse 24 for says it was the troublemakers who taught that Christians must keep the law of Moses and that the apostles themselves never gave such a commandment. Now lets look at the contrast in what the Lord Jesus Christ had to offer in Matthew 11.

Matt. 11:28 “Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.  29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.  30  For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.”

What the Lord is offering in Matthew 11 is just opposite of what the Bible says about the law of Moses in Acts 15. What the Lord offers is rest for the soul, an easy yoke and a light burden. What the law of Moses offered according to Acts 15 was an unbearable burden that was impossible to bear. Therefore they cannot be talking about the same thing. Jesus also said this about His commandments in 1 John 5.

1Jo 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”

If Jesus was talking about the law of Moses here then we would have a major contradiction with Acts 15 which says that the law of Moses was an unbearable burden. Yet this verse goes right along with the words of our Lord in Matthew 11:28-30. The only possibility then is that the commandments that Jesus is talking about in 1 John are not the commandments of the Mosaic law but of a different law. If we look at the context of 1 John it is very easy to see what commandments the Lord is referring to in 1 John 5:3.

1Jo 2:3 “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.7  Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8  Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. 9  He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10  He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.”

Continued.

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:”  Acts 15:24

   The Ten Commandments are the very heart of the Old Covenant between God and Israel.  In many of today’s churches the Ten Commandments play an important role.  Many of the churches in the area in which I live start their services each week by reciting the Ten Commandments.  Many professing Christians will use the Ten Commandments as the ultimate guide and rule for their life.  In our society conflicts concerning the Ten Commandments are often in the national news.  Almost every year we hear of a court case concerning the display of the Ten Commandments in public places such as schools or court buildings.
   With the emphasis that many churches place on the Ten Commandments as well as all the fuss in society concerning them, one would think that Ten Commandments would be very well understood especially by religious people.  In fact just the opposite is true.  If religious people really understood the law of Moses (in which the Ten Commandments are the very heart) they would be horrified by what they have done with them.
   If a person was to claim that the Ten Commandments never applied to the gentiles and that they applied only to the Jews from Moses to the cross many would label this person as a heretic. If the person went on to say that the Ten Commandments was a ministry of death and condemnation and was not given for a righteous man many would say that this person is not only a heretic, but a lunatic as well.  If this person went on and said the Law of Moses was made void and made obsolete by Jesus because it had a major fault in it and that those who tried to live by it were cursed, then this person better be prepared to be stoned.  Yet, the Word of God teaches these things and more about the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses.

Below are a few very important truths concerning the Mosaic law from God’s Word that well greatly help those who are truth seekers.

John 1:17 “For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”

These two verses let us know the beginning and the end of the Mosaic law, which was from Moses to the cross of Jesus Christ (where He fulfilled the law).

John 1:17 tells us that the law came by Moses. This teaches two important points about the law of Moses. 1, as stated above it had a beginning and 2, that before Moses many generation existed without the law of Moses. This does not mean that people from Adam to Moses were not accountable to God for their sin. Romans 5:13 says “(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

God gave mankind many commandments before Moses came along with the Mosaic law. The first command God gave to mankind in which mankind broke was not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen 1:16). There are many commands God gave to man before Moses Gen. 9 records a few:

Gen. 9:1 “And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.  2  And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.  3  Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.  4  But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.  5  And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.  6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.  7  And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.”


Here God commands mankind to be fruitful and multiply, not to eat flesh with the blood still in it and not to shed another mans blood. God also allows mankind here to eat any animal whether clean or unclean unlike the Mosaic Law which forbids the eating of unclean animals. So we clearly see that even without the Mosaic law mankind was responsible before God concerning his sin. God defined certain sins and set limits upon mankind many generation before Moses, God also judged sin as seen in Romans 5:13-14 many generations before the Mosaic law was given. In Exodus 19 God is going to make a covenant with a certain group of people. This covenant as one can read is the Ten Commandment which follow in Exodus 20. A covenant is a legally binding contract between two or more parties. In this case the text of Exodus 19 is clear that the covenant (contract)  is between God and the children of Israel who were delivered from Eygpt.

Ex. 19:1 “In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they [into] the wilderness of Sinai.  2  For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come [to] the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.  3  And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;  4  Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.  5  Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:  6  And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.  7  And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.  8  And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.”

There are two very important observations that a careful student of God’s Word will notice in these verses.

1. The Ten Commandment was a covenant that God made ONLY with the children of Israel.

Verse 1 “children of Israel”, verse 2 “Israel”, and in verse 3 “the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;”

It is clear that God is making this covenant with only one group of people, Israel. No gentile nations or people are even mentioned or hinted at in this passage. God is singling out one nation out of the entire world and making a covenant with then exclusively. Deuteronomy 5 even claims that the covenant of the Ten Commandments was not even made with the forefathers of Israel but to them alone.

Duet. 5:1 “And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.  2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.  3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.  4  The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,  5  (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,”

2. The result of the covenant that God made the with Israel was that they would be a peculiar people, distinct and separate from all other people of the world.

Continued

Hi Petro,

Yes! I really like Ironside a lot. I think he was a very sound teacher who knew his Bible very well. We need more like him today.

Pilgrim

Water baptism is not necessary in order to be saved. Baptism is something that one does after they are saved.

A few examples of those saved without baptism.


The thief on the cross was saved without baptism.

The immoral woman of Luke 7 was saved without baptism.

The blind man of John 9 was saved without baptism.

Zacchaeus in Luke 19 was saved without baptism.

Pilgrim

Were these people mentioned still under the old covenant and saved by Christ in person Himself? Does that make it different from the way we are saved under grace?  

Hi Ollie,

It doesn’t matter what covenant a person was under at the time of salvation. There is only one gospel and no more. If people before the cross were saved differently than those after the cross you would have more than one gospel. So if people before the cross were saved without baptism then people after the cross are saved without baptism. Hebrew 9:15 tells us the redemption of Old Testament saint was based in the New Covenant, not the Old.

Heb 9:15 “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”

Also, Hebrew 4:2 tells us that the gospel we now have is the same gospel that was preached to those wondering in the wilderness under Moses. Seeing that the Gospel is the same one for those under the Old Covenant as it is for those under the New then the conditions of salvation would be the same. So if Old Testament saints were saved apart from baptism then New Testament saints will be too.

Heb 4:2 “For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

God bless
Pilgrim

Amen! Petro.

Wrongly Dividing
the Word of Truth
 
ULTRA-DISPENSATIONALISM EXAMINED
IN THE LIGHT OF HOLY SCRIPTURE
 
H.A. IRONSIDE, Litt.D.

http://www.brethrenonline.org/books/ultrad.htm

Eph. 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Col. 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: (KJV)

Yes Pilgrim H.A. Ironside did a lot of Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth.

Maybe he did, I don't know. He sure hit the nail on the head in this article though.

Nope, he missed the nail many times in that article.  

I guess we will just have to disagree on this one. I would highly recommend this article to all truth seekers. God bless.  

Yes, we do not agree on this Brother. I believe this article is more harmful than helpful.

Grace & Peace

Then it would be good for everyone to read this article so they can make up their own minds wether Ironside hit the nail on the head or not. Don't you think It would be interesting to see how many on this board would agree or disagree with Ironside's article?

I read the article, many times.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

That's great! I would highly recommend everyone do like you did and read it many times.

Wrongly Dividing
the Word of Truth
 
ULTRA-DISPENSATIONALISM EXAMINED
IN THE LIGHT OF HOLY SCRIPTURE
 
H.A. IRONSIDE, Litt.D.

http://www.brethrenonline.org/books/ultrad.htm

Eph. 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Col. 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: (KJV)

Yes Pilgrim H.A. Ironside did a lot of Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth.

Maybe he did, I don't know. He sure hit the nail on the head in this article though.

Nope, he missed the nail many times in that article.  

I guess we will just have to disagree on this one. I would highly recommend this article to all truth seekers. God bless.  

Yes, we do not agree on this Brother. I believe this article is more harmful than helpful.

Grace & Peace

Then it would be good for everyone to read this article so they can make up their own minds wether Ironside hit the nail on the head or not. Don't you think It would be interesting to see how many on this board would agree or disagree with Ironside's article?

Amen! Sower.

It's good to hear from a fellow truth seeker.