[as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?]

Dear Petro:

I am saying that when a pastor pours water over someone's head OR immerses them in water and speaks God's word of promise then God saves that person.  "The baptized are pardoned, cleansed and sanctified in Christ."

When the pastor lays hands on the person who is baptized and prays for God's Holy Spirit to come upon this person then we trust in God's promises that this really happens.  The prayer that we say in our church is:

"God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we give you thanks for freeing your sons and daughters from the power of sin and for raising them up to a new life through this holy sacrament.  Pour your Holy Spirit upon name :  the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spririt of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord, the spirit of joy in your presence."

Only the Holy Spirit can enable the dying and rising of Baptism, and God's promise is that this is what the Spirit does in Baptism (Rom 6.1ff).

Am I saying that if someone is not baptized that they can't receive the Holy Spirit?  No.  Many who aren't baptized still come to faith and faith comes only through the Holy Spirit.  That's evident even in the Bible when Peter finds that Cornelius and his household have received the Holy Spirit so he doesn't hesitate in baptizing them.

You might ask, then why is Baptism necessary if we can have faith through the Holy Spirit without it?  Baptism is necessary because Christ commands it (Mt 28.19-20) and because in Baptism we die and rise with Christ.  God acted in Christ to save us; God acts through Baptism to save us.  The baptized are pardoned, cleansed, and sanctified in Christ (Rom 6.3-5).

Shalom

Pastor Tom,


You keep reiterating;

When the pastor lays hands on the person who is baptized and prays for God's Holy Spirit to come upon this person then we trust in God's promises that this really happens.  The prayer that we say in our church is:

"God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we give you thanks for freeing your sons and daughters from the power of sin and for raising them up to a new life through this holy sacrament.  Pour your Holy Spirit upon name :  the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spririt of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord, the spirit of joy in your presence."

And then quote Rom 6:1,2
3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Is this water baptism, which accomplishes what you have been talking about??

I have been with you, up to this point, but here is where we begin to part company..  I trust that you wont be like mardis, in flipping and flopping..

Are you saying that, water baptism, imparts the Holy Spirit??

If this is what you are teaching, please connect the dots for me, using the following scripture;

I have emboldened the princple verse;

Rom 6
4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

and,

Col 2
8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Eph 4
4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


1 Pet 3
20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

In the OT, at Eze 36, God promises a washing by the sprinkling of  pure water, although it is speaking of Israel, the nation, is it not true, this is the real washing of Israels sin away??

25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28  And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Blessings,  
Petro

[declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:]

I have heard many, when discussing election, limit the use of the definition for the word foreknowledge, as in 1 Pet 1:2, to mean that God looked down the corridor of time, to see, what man would do with Jesus before formulating His plan.

While this same word is also, defined as Gods "predeterminate plan",  since He is sovereign,

Are  their any scriptures which would bolster the idea that God did in  fact make his plan up in accordance with "What man would do" as opposed to "According to His Determinate Counsel of His will."

There are several problems that I see, which must be overcome;by those who hold to the idea God had to wait upon men to see what they do;

1. Is God a mere spectator, or observer, or is He the one that made the plan, from beginning to end??

For instance, consider this verse;

Isa 46
9  Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10  declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:



2.   Grace- the definitions of grace is one of an undeserving free gift given by Gods mercy and Soveriegn pleasure of His will.

The idea that it is given because of what someone might do or not do in the future, is simply not in accordance with the biblical definition of this word, rather the word teaches plainly that it is given to those He has chosen; or ELECTED

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
These things I command you, that ye love one another.
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. (Jhn 15:16-19)


Abraham, said to Isaac;

Gen 22

8  And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

That Lamb pointed to;   "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Jhn 1:29

If God had to look down thru the corridor of time, to see if man would kill, His lamb, can it really be said, God provided Himself a Lamb by his own determintae counsel and foreknowledge to save His people, or did mans actions determine the  savlvation of  the people of God.??





Any ideas??  with verses??  to support this notion..

Petro

[Is it necessary for Salvation??Now, in your previous post you sated; reply #34What you call "water Baptism" is just "Baptism" to me. I don't believe that it is just a "testimony to the world" nor that it is a work of "man." I said above, "Baptism is God's act for us. Though the pastor speaks the Word and does the washing, God is the one who baptizes. God is at work in every Baptism, putting the Word with the water to grace us."Let me see if I understand you correctly, here..Are you saying that when a pastor baptizes someone, and lays hands on them they receive the Holy Ghost; and if they are not water baptized by a pastor they cannot receive the Holy Spirit??Petro]

author  PastorTom as reply #34
Petro:



The Lord Jesus Christ says in Mt 28.19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."  Likewise in Mk 16.16,"The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned."

Pastor Tom,  

I would have answered you earlier, but I lost the post I prepared, when trying to post it, was to long, so I moved on and decided to answer when I had more time.
 
Without getting off the subject, and I think already we are steering the conversation off the subject, when we start talking about what man must do, to be saved.

The issue that was rasied herein, is water baptism, and the question is; Is it necessary for Salvation??

Now, in your previous post you sated; reply #34

What you call "water Baptism" is just "Baptism" to me.  I don't believe that it is just a "testimony to the world" nor that it is a work of "man."  I said above, "Baptism is God's act for us.  Though the pastor speaks the Word and does the washing, God is the one who baptizes.  God is at work in every Baptism, putting the Word with the water to grace us."

Let me see if I understand you correctly, here..

Are you saying that when a pastor baptizes someone, and lays hands on them they receive the Holy Ghost; and if they are not water baptized by a pastor they cannot receive the Holy Spirit??



Petro

[the devils also believe]

These verses stress the divine sovereignty in salvation.Verses 12 and 13,which mention our trust and belief in Christ,emphasize the human responsibility in the process.

James 2
19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

This word believe is the same , word which is found in ;

Jhn 6  
29  Jesus answered and said untio them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Trusting, or having confidence in the word of God, produces, faith, which God gives as a free gift by Grace to everyone who comes to Him.

Jesus, said;

Jhn 14
6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No man can come to God the Father except by Jesus,

and again Jesus said;

Mat 11
27  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

And the scripture tells;

Jhn 6
44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rom 10
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Note the work of God, is that you believe in Him who He has sent.  (Jhn 6:29)  above.

Now I know alot of christians like to take credit for believing, as though this is their work.

But it is God who does a work in everyman, whom He has elected , which when it is done, produces trust sufficient enough to believe Him, so that He can give them that faith which is  necessary to believe in Jesus who Saves the Soul.

Who is it that can take credit for this work?? .........which produces the will of God.

Petro

[And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,]

Now here is the final verses which put this matter to rest once and for all.

Mk 15
37  And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38  And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
39  And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
40  There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
41  (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
42  And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
43  Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

Add that verse above to the one I have already presented, and you've got the end of all discussion..


Mat 27
59  And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60  And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
61  And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

Now, there is no more need to speculate, if anyone should ever ask;

When was JESUS crucified?? , the answer will always be,  FRIDAY , the day of preparation..which is the day before the Sabaath.

Blessings,
Petro

Ollie,

Thanks for your post, they support exactly what I have been saying.

I have stated;  That God as Creator of all things;

And as judge, He is only obliged to execute JUST judgement in righteousness.
And, not obliged to force himself on sinners, as many believe.

But, just because God has chosen for himself a people to save, those who do not understand the righteousness of God, take issue, that He is unjust because He saves whom He wills, and does not lift a hand to do anything for others who perish, because of their sin.


The natural man, who is unable to receive, know or understand the things of God, can only excercise his will in the context of doing good or bad, he can chose, to obey the law of man, or not; on the other hand, since we live in the age of grace, and even before this age, the obedience to the law of God, only brought a person to Christ, it was never given that by keeping it, anyone could be saved.

A since all men are under the condemnation of sin, every man is in bondage to sin, and is unable to do anything but serve sin, it is only by Gods grace in drwaing those whom he has chosen to come to the knowledge of the truth, from this vast see of human flesh which perishes, that some are saved, we don't know who they are, this is why, the task of the church is not to buiuld buildings, but to preach the unsearchable riches of Christ, that all may here, and those who have been ordained to eternal life, will respond to the Gospel, because he has ordained such to be.

The evil one knows that there is a Godly seed, but he is in the dark as to who they are, just like us, this is why, his goal to deceive,  devour, kill, and murder, pillage rape, and what ever, in hopes of frusterating Gods Plan, if he can cause the death of just one of the elect,  whom God has chosen from before the foundations of the world, then he can thwart the Plan of God.

Kind of like uprooting a wheat plant, prematurely, because it looks like a tare, the seed of the evil one.

Many Christians before they were saved lived, lives of the basest debauchery, and if this person, who will be saved in the future is  an elect of God, chosen from before the foundations of the world, then it makes sense the Gods Holy Spirit will sanctify (set apart) this individual to bring him, to salvation, otherwise, if the evil one has his way, and takes that life, then he will have succeeded in thawrting Gods plan.

As for Justin Martyr, taking a paragraph and determining the mind of this man, when writing what he did,is hard to ascertain the total substance of exactly what the point is he is trying to make.

On the surface, I would have to disagree, with this statement he makes, based on the scriptures and my understanding of them,

110-165AD Justin Martyr   ;

"For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for."


Gods grace is not a reward for the good men do (Eph 2:8-9), this is clear; and they are ulitmately judged by their works (Rev 20:12-13)

Faith to believe God, is a free gift to those that perish whom God has chosen.. it simply offered by the His Grace, freely.

It is his work not mans..


Blessings,

Petro

[the next day, that followed the day of the preparation,]

Now here is a clue.

Mat 27
54  Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
55  And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
56  Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.
57  When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
58  He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
59  And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60  And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
61  And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
62  Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63  Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64  Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
65  Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
66  So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.

Note verse 62;

What is so difficult to believe, the next day following the day of preparation which would have been the Sabaath, would find these two women, sitting over against the sepulchre??

I would assume many would visit the tombs of their loved ones on the day of rest, or was walking to the burial places against the Law?

Assuming Jesus was crucified on Friday..

The setting of the guard obviously didn't not happen the same night Jesus first laid in the tomb, it was set the following day, according to this passge..

I just see, problems for the idea, proposed Jesus was crucified on any other day but Friday,

The reason,..................In on account of  Lk 24:21  "to day is the third day"

Matching it perfectly to the prophecy,

Jesus died about the 9th hour, was buried before sundown, this then would be the First day, spending all night and day of the Sabaath, for the 2d day, and rising early the morning of Sunday (the first day of the week) the 3rd day.

Thus accounting for three days and three nights, in nthe tomb.

Your attention is called to;

Mk 16
9  Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week,................

To give the Greek flavor to this verse; her is the translation

Now having risen early [the] first [day] of the week,.................

This destroys any notion one might have that, Jesus rose, before the 1st day of the week..


Blessings,

Petro

[first day of the week,]

After everything has been said and done on this thread;

How is it,  you who believe Jesus was crucified wednesday or thrusday, reconcile the scriptures, herein with this opinion.

Luke 24
1  Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
13  And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14  And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15  And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16  But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17  And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18  And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19  And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20  And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21  But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22  Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23  And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24  And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25  Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26  Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Please note, verse 21, especially extra carefully.


"today is the thrid day", speaking of TODAY as in the "first day of the week" in verse 1.

Are the scriptures wrong??  at this passage..

Blessings,
Petro

Petro, I still do not understand what you are asking by asking, "What is the work one must do to be saved?"

Maybe these scriptures will help.

2 Corinthians 7:10, "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

Philippians 2:12, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Hebrews 5:8-9, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

God gracious gift of salvation cannot be merited.  We never deserve salavtion.  However, God does not just go around bestowing salvation upon anyone and everyone regardless if they believe or not, repent or not, and if they are baptized or not.

We have faith in God's work of salvation in our lives when we follow what He has told us to do to receive His gracious gift of salvation.

Colossians 2:11-12, "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

The Bible teaches that to be saved a person must:
To be saved we must hear the word - Romans 10:14-17.
To be saved we must believe - John 8:24.
To be saved we must repent of sins - Luke 13:3-5.
To be saved we must confess faith in Jesus - Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:35-38.
To be saved we must be baptized (water immersion) - Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:35-38; Romans 6:3-4.

Abraham was saved by an active and obedient faith, not by faith only - Genesis 12-15:6; James 2:23-24.

Baptism is done:
  To be saved - Mark 16:16.
  To have sins remitted - Acts 2:38.
  Is a water immersion - Acts 8:35-38.
  Is done to have sins washed away - Acts 22:16.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Romans 6.
  Is to have new life in Christ - Galatians 3:26-27.
  Is to have sins cut off - Colossians 2:11-12.
  Is done to be saved - 1 Peter 3:20-21.

Babies are not candidates for baptism.  Before one can be baptized he/she must believe and repent (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38).  Babies are not capable of either understanding, believing, or repenting, and therefore are not candidates for baptism until they can believe and repent.

Thanks everyone.  This has been a great study, and I look forward to our continued discussions.

Mardis,

Thanks for clearing this up, I can see, that you really do believe, man is not saved by any work at all he does, that work is done by God, and that water baptism is not necessary for salvation.

I have the same problem sometimes, trying to explain something, and it comes out not sound the way I intended it, and it misleads some..


You just didn't explain it quite right..but, know you have..

Thank You,  
Petro

Jason, Mardis,

So after saying all you desired to say, you didn't asnwer my question.

What is the work one must do to be saved]/b].

Are either of you able to give an answer??

It satnds to reason that if, you claim one must work to be saved, then you must know what that work encompasess.

Would you please answer my question..

What work must one do to be saved??

When have I EVER said that one must be saved by a "work"?  I'm rather surprised you would say that considering past conversations.  Unless you consider faith to be a work then no work of man can save you.  I'm really not sure why you would think I believe one is saved by works.  

Ye are saved by grace, through faith ,and not of yourselves lest any man should boast.

Physical Baptism and any other such thing to merit salvation would be a work of man.  All I said was that getting Baptized was biblical, it's a statement of profession to the world.  

Jason,  

For give me, I read your reply #18, and since it followed mine, I assumed you where directing your response to me,  I saw all the verses, which reject work, however, your opening sentence mentioned James 2, that famous verse which everyone uses to prove one must do something to gain salvation.

And since I have asked this question many times, I have yet to get a response.

I see, you don't believe this, my mistake, please accept my apologies.


Blessings,

Petro



My question still stands, to anyone who can answer this, what work must be done in order to be saved??

I have heard this from all kinds of different people who by their own testimoiny are Christians.  And not one has been able to answer this simple question ;  

what work must be done to be saved??


Petro

I forgot to state;

What is the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit, if not Circumscision of the Heart.  (Deut 30:6)

Blessings,

Petro

[That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,]

Baptism is not water only, but it is water used together with God's Word and by his command.

In Matthew 28 our Lord Jesus Christ says:  "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Baptism is a miracle.  It looks so ordinary:  some parents, some sponsors, and a pastor gathered around a bowl to say a few words and splash some water on a baby who either sleeps or screams, unaware of what's happening.  Who'd ever guess there is anything earthshaking or miraculous about that?

But it's just like the God of the promise, to hide themost miraculous event in a simple ceremony.  Baptism is a miracle greater than walking on water.  For in it, with the washing of the water and the pronouncement of his Word, God adopts each of us, takes us into the communion of saints, and gives us a future that not even death and the devil can destroy.

In the sacraments, Christ puts his words together with some common, ordinary earthly things - water, bread, and wine - to give his gifts to us.  This combination, Christ's giving us his Word with something earthly or physical, is what makes it a sacrament.

In Baptism, Christ takes plain, ordinary water that has been drawn from a tap and puts it together with the Word to seal you as his own.  It is as if Christ says, "Here now, with the washing of this water, you know that my Word and decision are for you.  Now you can be certain, for I have washed you in my promise.

The old sinner's favorite attack on Baptism is to ignore the Word and concentrate on the water.  "Water," it sniffs.  "Water!  Whoever heard of such a thing?  You flush your toilets with water and now you say that God uses water to make you certain?  Nonsense!"

If that doesn't work, the old Adam or Eve puts on some religion and tries to explain Baptism away.  "Oh yes," the old you will say, "the water is a nice symbol.  But what really counts is what you do with your Baptism.  If you want to be sure of it, you have to make your Baptism complete by doing what God wants you to do."

Either way, whether by scorning the water or calling it a symbol, the old sinful self makes it sound as if Baptism is "water only."  The it can be ignored as a quaint ceremony for children or taken as something we have to do before getting down to what's really important:  doing good things for Jesus.  It's the same story.  If the old self doesn't ignore the promise completely, it insists on trying to earn what God will only give as a gift.

But "Baptism isnot water only.  It is water used together with God's Word...."  The water and the Word can't be separated, not without losing the sacrament.  Apart from the Word, the water is plain, ordinary water.  Apart from the water, the Word is still God's Word but the sacrament is gone.  The Word and the water go together, the Word telling us what happens in the washing.

"Make disciples of all nations," Jesus said.  How does this happen?  By "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Sond and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you" (Mt 28.19-20).  This is Christ's Word, telling us what happens in the washing.  As the Word is spoken, as the water is washed across our heads, Jesus makes us his disciples, his own beloved people.

So, in the speaking of the Word and the washing of the water, Christ gives birth to the new you in each of us, making us members of his church.  Then, after our Baptism, he continues to be with us in the teaching of his Word and the Lord's Supper, sustaining and keeping the new you he has made.  "And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age," he says (Mt 28.20).

That's why Baptism rings and sings with so much certainty.  Where the old sinner in us can manage to separate the water from the Word, the certainty is lost.  But when the Word and the water work together, as Christ promises they do, Baptism is more certain than the sunrise.  For Christ himself is present in the Word, with the water, to make us his very own and give us all the gifts he has to give.

All of the old Adam's attacks on Baptism have the same purpose:  to make it appear that it is something we do for God, not something God does for us.  As a result, people wind up fearing, loving, and trusting in what they do, and Baptism finally doesn't matter.  So unbelievers sneer at Baptism as a magic rite we do so we won't be afraid to die.  Or the super pious ignore Baptism as if God can't do what he promises and concentrate on their own conversions, decisions for Christ, and experiences as far more important.  Either way, Baptism is treated with contempt.

In all of these attacks, the fact that Christ commanded Baptism makes us all the more certain.  It is a friendly command, a loving order Christ gives so that we will know how important Baptism is both to him and to us.  Because he commanded it, we can be sure that Baptism is no human plaything - something invented by people to make us feel better.  And we can be sure, too, that all of the old self's religious strutting about conversions and experiences is just that - strutting and nothing else.

Baptism is God's act for us.  Though the pastor speaks the Word and does the washing, God is the one who baptizes.  God is at work in every Baptism, putting the Word with the water to grace us.  God keeps right on working, too, "to the end of the age" to be sure we're sure - to keep the new you in the certainty that is Christ's trademark.

Pastor Tom,

Welcome to the board, I appreaciate your post, and I thinik you have sated what needs to said here, for people to understand clearly.

Accoding to the original post;

In order to be saved, one must be baptized (water immersion).

My understanding of this is not the same, because of these two verses, primarily;


Eph 5
25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

This verse is clearly, making a distinction between the sanctifying and cleansing work of the Word of God, in those who are being set apart day by day, the use of the word "water " in this passage of scripture is symbolic, of the Word of God, which came down from heaven, and gives, life, regenerates life, cleanses the land, and refreshes it,  

it is not talking about water batism at all.

Secondly, the next three verses make it even clearer;

Titus 3
5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

1 Pet 3
21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Pet 1
22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

The law, which could never make the hearers of it, perfect, had in it the idead of the necessity of being clean, especially when coming before God, Temple, priests, thus the need for washings, for purification.

And as one can see, the Baptism necessary to be clean before a Holy God, could never be attained thru the external, Titus, makes the case for;

 the..

 "Baptism which is essential for salvation"; and that is the "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Water baptism is after, the fact; the Ethiopian Eunuch, asked;
"See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."  (Acts 8:36-37)

Jesus, said to Peter;

But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.  (Mat 16:15-16)

I don't argue, that Christians should not be baptized in water, What I question, is the idea that "Water Baptism" is what saves.

The reason for water baptism is, as has been stated, as a testimony to the world,

I am reminded how when Jesus, cleansed the Leper at Mk 1:40-44, and then said this to him;

color=Red]See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.[/color]

Those who are cleansed by the regenerative work of  the Holy Spirit, are baptized with the Holy Spirit, it is a work of God, not of man.

Where am I wrong??

Petro



 

[However, there is something we must do to receive God's gracious redemptive work.]

Mardis, my question is not a trick question, you said;

mardis reply #10

This is not working to merit salvation, because we cannot merit salvation. However, there is something we must do to receive God's gracious redemptive work. This includes baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Please refer to your answer to reba, I have posted what you stated in reply to her, post.

Specifically refering to your own words, which you wrote where you state;

However, there is something we must do to receive God's gracious redemptive work.

What is that specific something we must do to receivce God's gracious redemptive work



Mardis,     your attention is invited to;

posted byu mardis rely #24  
I am not really sure what it is you are asking. Please explain the question of "What is the work one must do to be saved." I am sorry that I do not understand what you are asking. Maybe if you explained it further I could try to answer this question.

I am curious, what it is you are trying to teach, concerning this??, This is why I ask the question.

Now, concerning Baptism,

You say:

 posted by mardis reply #14

Baptism is essential to being saved (see citations above). The only time the Bible mentions faith alone is in James 2:24 which does more than imply, it specfically states that we are not saved by faith only. We will not be saved unless we obey the Lord (Hebrews 5:8-9). This includes baptism (Mark 16:16).

I agree whole heartedly with what you have stated : "Baptism is essential to being saved."

Since Jesus, himself at Mk 16:16, says:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

My question here at this point you have raised, is, what baptism is in view at this passage of scirpture, the Baptism of water for the remission of sins, which John performed, or....... the one John spoke about, when he said;

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. (Jhn 1:33)

You see, the reason why I ask this is, that many people TODAY, get to themselves, a water immersed type of baptism, and really don't believe anything, especially, when it is performed to them as infants.  

So this outward testimonial (manisfestation) doesn't do anything,according to what Jesus is stating in Mk 16:16;

Since the emphasis on baptism according to Jesus, is "He that believeth", and those that don't believe and are baptized (Water immersed), shall be damned in spite of the fact they where water immersed.

So, please clear this up for us..which Baptism is

"essential".


Thank you,

Petro

Petro:

If you are calling me dishonest, allow me to refer you to a previous post of mine:

Think of the true example of God/Jesus this way:

The fullness of God can be seen as a body.

My hands are quite different from my feet, but they are still me. Just the same, there are differences between God the Father and Jesus Christ, but they are still fully god.

Jesus is still both fully God and fully man (he'd have to be, to pay for all mankind's sin).

I don't deny Jesus's deity, and that excerpt alone should set that fact in stone for you, if anything does at all.

No hate here, I just think you overlooked something.

shiro,

My apologies, I had to go back, and re read your previous post, I see, my mistake, !=, makes me unacquainted with  programing, I see what you meant.

Anyhow I am glad you have come to the living God, and recognize only what God can make men see and understand.

A Christiansunite forums member mailed me a JW, greek interlinear, and it is a fine tool to draw out the truth of the scriptures, when discussing them with JWs, the watchtower  only  butchered the obvious verses, but there are many verses which have not been touched, they have been very helpful in my ministerty to JWs, I have spoken to quite a few, and have been able to point out the descrepencies, since the Interlinear states, in the prefix, that the NWT is a "word for word" translation of the Greek language.

Their Interlinear is true to any other Greek-English Interlinear, and the fact that it has the NWT in the margins, is what allows for point out the errors,  The best one is 1969 edition, it is a pruple book.

I woulkd be insterested how you came to realize that they were teaching error.

So, I beg your forgiveness, My mistake..

In Christ,

 Petro

[work]

Jason, Mardis,

So after saying all you desired to say, you didn't asnwer my question.

What is the work one must do to be saved]/b].

Are either of you able to give an answer??

It satnds to reason that if, you claim one must work to be saved, then you must know what that work encompasess.

Would you please answer my question..

What work must one do to be saved??



And, Mardis,

While you are at it, if water baptism doesn't wash away your sins, What do you mean by;

One must be baptized (water immersed)..

You statement, "Jesus blood is what washes away sins", reflects you believe, that  the washing which is produced by the blood, is what saves, water baptism is after the fact; please explain what you mean..



Petro