How can it be claimed that Jesus was rich when even He Himself said that He was not?

*nod* Amen, BEP. We should be grateful for the gifts were are given, but always those gifts should be used to build up others and to bring glory to Christ. The debate over gifts is kind of pointless, because it doesn't matter WHAT gift we are given. God works as He wills, and He gives us each gifts through His Spirit that we can use to serve Him.

SOLI DEO GLORIA! TO GOD ALONE BE THE GLORY!

You know, some of you need to get better at paragraphing if you want the whole debate read. LOL  

Anyways, I'm not sure what all has been said here, but the issue of tongues came up on another forum some time back. I'll post now what I said then.

Please, don't jump on me, since these aren't addressed to anyone here, and I'd be glad of any correction. This was an argument-specific post.

. I think praying/speaking in tongues is more of a time-specific gift than many of the others mentioned. Condsider that when the church age first began, speaking more than one language was a rare thing at best. Now though, we have not only a system for teaching known languages, but also for learning unknown languages. In the early days of the church, this was virtually unheard of. Now, don't get me wrong. I believe it still happens, but not nearly as often as it did originally. Other gifts, such as teaching, and being a servant or helper have become far more prevalent.
I disagree with the theory that praying in tongues is good because Satan can't understand it for a couple reasons.
A) Because if you believe Satan can block your prayers merely by throwing temptations at you, then I think you overestimate his power, and underestimate the powers of both God and prayer.
B) Praying in tongues for self-edification is completely unnecessary. We are told in scripture that the Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf with cries and groanings that human words cannot express. In other words, no matter how we pray, the prayer reaches God and sounds perfect.

Prophecying, I think, is also a gift that is rarely used now, and is more time-specific than the other gifts mentioned. Remember that when the church first began, they did not have the Holy Scriptures as we have them now. The Bible is the Word of God. That word no longer needs to be spoken... At least as often... From human mouths.

My point? Even if someone cannot speak in tongues or prophesy, it does not mean a lack of faith. It may simply be that God has instilled other gifts within them for His own purposes. I feel that I am called to be a servant. That is my gift. That is God's purpose for me. Perhaps He has chosen you to speak or pray in or translate tongues. And if so, that is indeed wonderous, but the other gifts mentioned should not be discounted, merely because they are not as visible.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God." (NIV) This, in my mind, is more of a clear translation, because it not only refers to spiritual gifts, but also to spiritual teaching, such as the Gospel. But it does not speak at all of speaking in tongues. In fact, looking at the context, it is actually speaking of spiritual teaching.

Your second reference is 1 Corinthians 14:2, which reads:

"For anyone who speaks in tongues does not speak to man, but to God." But nowhere does it say that Satan isn't able to understand, nor does it say that the prayers not spoken in tongues go anywhere but directly to God. Read the whole of the passage.

NOTE: Words in italics are being emphasized by me, not by the apostle Paul.

I Corinthians 14:1-25

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in tongues does not speak to man, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his Spirit. But everyone who prophecies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement, and comfort. He who speaks with the tongue edifies himself, but he who prophecies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be edified.
Now brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the fulte or harp, how will anyone know what the tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet not one of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to him, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are so eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
For this reason, anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say 'amen' to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church, I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. In the law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
And through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people
But even then they will not listen to me." says the Lord.
Tongues then are a sign not for believers, but for unbelievers; Prophecy however is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner, and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The point of this passage, in essence, is that it is more important to edify the church and fellow believers than it is to edify yourself. It is more important to instruct and teach unbelievers than it is yourself. So yes, speaking in tongues is a great gift, and blessed are those that have it. But if you are to pray in tongues, pray also for understanding, that if there are any near you that do not understand, they too may be edified, whether they be unbeliever, or fellow believer. That is what is really important afterall, to build one another up in wisdom and understanding of God and his word.

Double-standards have always sickened me, but this is just horrid. I agree with the Thomas More law center, and I hope that others will join them in fighting this decision.

As a nation, do we really deserve the blessings of GOD with what we have allowed?

As a nation? No. As individuals? No. But we have it anyway. Isn't that what Christ's gospel is really all about? It is not through our own merit we are blessed, but through God's grace and His mercy.

Precisely, Pastor Roger. It's a bit of double-speak from ACLU. They claim they want to keep the government from interfering with religion while at the same time speaking to eliminate religion using governmental power... At least Christian religion.

But I'll be silent for now. I know I'm preachin' to the choir.

Actually, BEP, it does exist... But not in the form which ACLU claims it does. In fact, it exists not to protect the government from religion, but to protect religion from the government. Like everything else, ACLU has it backwards. XD

OUCH! Sounds like someone's finally woken up! Good read there, Pastor Roger.

((Personal note: This is just truly sickening. While we all hold to Creationism here, the struggle continues around the country to offer alternatives to Darwinism. Although teaching ID will not lead people all the way, it would be a big step. It saddens me that our judges are ignorant of both the constitution and the issues on which they rule.))

Tuesday, December 20, 2005
HARRISBURG, Pa. - "Intelligent design" cannot be mentioned in biology classes in a Pennsylvania public school district, a federal judge said Tuesday, ruling in one of the biggest courtroom clashes on evolution since the 1925 Scopes trial.

Dover Area School Board members violated the Constitution when they ordered that its biology curriculum include the notion that life on Earth was produced by an unidentified intelligent cause, U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III said. Several members repeatedly lied to cover their motives, he said.

The ruling will not likely be appealed by the slate of new board members, who in the November election ousted the group that installed intelligent design, the new board president said Tuesday.

The school board policy, adopted in October 2004, was believed to have been the first of its kind in the nation.

"The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy," Jones wrote, calling the board's decision "breathtaking inanity."

"The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources," he wrote.

The board's attorneys had said members were seeking to improve science education by exposing students to alternatives to Charles Darwin's theory that evolution develops through natural selection. Intelligent-design proponents argue that the theory cannot fully explain the existence of complex life forms.

The plaintiffs challenging the policy argued that intelligent design amounts to a secular repackaging of biblical creationism, which the courts have already ruled cannot be taught in public schools.

The judge agreed.

"We find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board's real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom," he wrote in his 139-page opinion.

The Dover policy required students to hear a statement about intelligent design before ninth-grade biology lessons on evolution. The statement said Darwin's theory is "not a fact" and has inexplicable "gaps." It refers students to an intelligent design textbook, "Of Pandas and People," for more information.

Jones wrote that he wasn't saying the intelligent design concept shouldn't be studied and discussed, saying its advocates "have bona fide and deeply held beliefs which drive their scholarly endeavors."

However, he wrote, "our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom."

The controversy divided the borough of Dover and surrounding Dover Township, a rural area of nearly 20,000 residents about 20 miles south of Harrisburg. It galvanized voters to oust eight incumbent school board members who supported the policy in the Nov. 8 school board election. The ninth board member was not up for re-election.

Said the judge: "It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy."

The board members were replaced by a slate of eight opponents who pledged to remove intelligent design from the science curriculum.

They also will likely drop the old plan now that the judge has ruled, new board president Bernadette Reinking said. "As far as I can tell you, there is no intent to appeal," she said.

Reinking said the new board will likely move the subject of intelligent design into some undetermined elective social studies class. She said the board will need to talk to its attorney before determining specific actions.

Eric Rothschild, lead attorney for the families who challenged the policy, called the ruling "a real vindication for the parents who had the courage to stand up and say there was something wrong in their school district."

Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel of the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Mich., said he would like to appeal the decision, but it was up to the school board.

"What this really looks like is an ad hominem attack on scientists who happen to believe in God," Thompson said of Jones' ruling.

It was the latest chapter in a debate over the teaching of evolution dating back to the famous 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial, in which Tennessee biology teacher John T. Scopes was fined $100 for violating a state law that forbade teaching evolution. The Tennessee Supreme Court reversed his conviction on a technicality, and the law was repealed in 1967.

Jones heard arguments in the fall during a six-week trial in which expert witnesses for each side debated intelligent design's scientific merits. Other witnesses, including current and former school board members, disagreed over whether creationism was discussed in board meetings months before the curriculum change was adopted.

It is among at least a handful of cases that have focused new attention on the teaching of evolution in the nation's schools.

Earlier this month, a federal appeals court in Georgia heard arguments over evolution disclaimer stickers placed in a biology textbooks. A federal judge in January had ordered Cobb County school officials to immediately remove the stickers, which called evolution a theory, not a fact.

In November, state education officials in Kansas adopted new classroom science standards that call the theory of evolution into question.

Kansas Board of Education Chairman Steve Abrams, who supported that state's new standards, said the circumstances in Kansas and Pennsylvania are much different, given that the Dover board mandated intelligent design in its curriculum.

"We're not doing that," he said. "It's about teaching good critical thinking skills."

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AMEN to Timothy and Air.

Incidentally, we do the same thing. If someone offers us 'happy holidays', we turn to them and say, "And you have a Merry Christmas." offering them a genuine smile.

*chuckle* Don't get me wrong, Pastor Roger. I'm all for wiping PC from the face of the earth (as is obvious by some statements I've made elsewhere. ). I'm simply saying that this should not be a greeting used in response to the world's secularizing of the holidays. It needs to be an expression of our own heart, with its purpose being simply to glorify our Savior.

AMEN PASTOR ROGER! HE IS RISEN INDEED!

Now, I love this article, absolutely love it. But I can also see one potential problem arising from the adoption of this phrase, in that it would be seen as an attempt by Christians to force our beliefs down the throats of others. That is not what it is. We have as much right to proclaim Christ as a Buhddist has to proclaim Buhdda, as much as a muslim has the right to proclaim Allah... In this country, that is what protected by freedoms of religion and speech.

The idea of this article, I love. However, I think we as Christians need to be careful about how we go about it, as we may end up driving away more people than we bring into the kingdom.

First, a quick note. Understand that I do not promote Evolution as a truth or even a viable option. All I have learned and am learning both Scripturally and scientifically shows that darwinian evolution is impossible, illogical, and unBiblical. HOWEVER!!! That does not mean that there are those within the world that believe it, even some of our brothers and sisters in Christ. For this reason, I believe it important to study ALL aspects of both Darwinism and Creationism, in order to better defend our faith, and our belief in the creation of the heavens and earth by God's hand and word.

It is for that reason that I have brought up this subject, and for that reason that I have placed it here in the debate section. It's quite simple. I wish to hold a debate, with one person arguing the side of Creation, the other Darwinism. That does not mean that the person arguing Darwinism must believe it. I simply would ask him/her to play devil's advocate for the time being. I think there is much we can learn, if we wish to be equipped and continue to see the decline in the belief of Darwinism.

((I wasn't sure where to post this. If it is in the wrong place, please move it. ))

I received this via Email from my friend, Alaina. I thought it was a wonderful read, and so I now pass it on to you here at CU.

So... Without further ado: THE LORD'S BASEBALL GAME....

"Freddy and the Lord stood by to observe a baseball game. The Lord's team was playing Satan's team.

The Lord's team was at bat, the score was tied zero to zero, and it was the bottom of the 9th inning with two outs. They continued to watch as a batter stepped up to the plate named 'Love.'

Love swung at the first pitch and hit a single, because "Love never fails."

The next batter was named Faith, who also got a single because Faith works with Love.

The next batter up was named Godly Wisdom. Satan wound up and threw the first pitch.


Godly Wisdom looked it over and let it pass: Ball one. Three more pitches and Godly Wisdom walked because he never swings at what Satan throws.


The bases were now loaded. The Lord then turned to Freddy and told him He was now
going to bring in His starplayer. Up to the plate stepped Grace. Freddy said, "He sure doesn't look like much!"

Satan's whole team relaxed when they saw Grace.
Thinking he had won the game, Satan wound up and fired his first pitch. To the shock of everyone, Grace hit the ball harder than anyone had ever seen! But Satan was not worried; his center fielder let very few get by.



He went up for the ball, but it went right through his glove, hit him on the head and sent him crashing on the ground;

the roaring crowds went wild as the ball





continued over the fence . . . for a home run!


The Lord's team wn!

The Lord then asked Freddy if he knew why Love, Faith and Godly Wisdom could get on base but couldn't win the game. Freddy answered that he didn't know why.

The Lord explained, "If your love, faith and wisdom had won the game, you would think you had done it by yourself. Love, Faith and Wisdom will get you on base but only My Grace can get you Home:


'For by Grace are you saved, it is a gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Psalm 84:11, "For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord will give grace and glory; no good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly."

Pass this on, if you mean it.
I do Love God. He is my source of existence and Savior. He keeps me functioning each and everyday. Without Him, I am nothing, but with him:

"I can do all things through Christ
who strengthens me."
Phil 4:13"

Amen, BEP. The faith of a child is a marvelous thing. It is for that reason that children so often can sense things that we as grownups cannot. We become so... Obsessed with our knowledge, so intent in our studies, that sometimes... Sometimes we forget to just sit still and listen for the voice of the Spirit.

We are so quick to dismiss young children because of their lack of knowledge... But in one sense, they are stronger than we could ever hope to be. It is the faith of a child which will move mountains.