So few will be saved

[bluelake]

Heidi,
On a more positive note may I add Jn.3:16, Eph.2:8-9 Jn.19:30  
The Lord is still in charge, loving and forgiving people.

We are saved by grace, not works. Eph.1:4 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should
be holy and without blame before him in love." v.7 "In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace."
Christ died for the world. That's a whole lot of people.  

God bless ,
bluelake

[I_Believe]

sojourner,

Your first text of Titus 8: 3-4 disagrees with your philosophy within the very text.

But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; (Tit 3:4-8)

Good works are good and profitable to men. But they do not save him.

"not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us"

Come out of the darkness of man's corrupted tradition and see the truth of the Good News.

But I might also add, not the understanding as you would like it to mean, but what it has always meant.

Correct again.  Not what the wolves brought in as soon as the Apostles departed but the Good News preached to Abraham and given to Paul by the revelation of Christ.

By the way, you did not address the main point of my post.  Can you reconcile the Good News preached to Abraham with the "New Law" given by the Catholic Church?

[sojourner]

I Believe,

Come out of the darkness of man's corrupted tradition and see the truth of the Good News.

That is precisely what I have done. I have left the rationalism, relativity, and chaos of the modern matra of believe what you want, and so can everybody else. It doesn't matter what you believe if you can find something in the Bible that can remotely backs up your theory.

Good works are good and profitable to men. But they do not save him.

I don't think you know the difference between the objective work of Christ and the subjective. That is what is confusing you and why you don't understand Titus 3:4-8.

Not what the wolves brought in as soon as the Apostles departed but the Good News preached to Abraham and given to Paul by the revelation of Christ.

That's called rationalism. You cannot prove your view even goes back to the 16th century, so you alledge wolves came in and cannot prove that either. Pure subposition.

By the way, you did not address the main point of my post.  Can you reconcile the Good News preached to Abraham with the "New Law" given by the Catholic Church?

I don't think I can as I don't know what the Roman Catholic says about it. I don't know anything about the 'new law' either, in fact never heard of it.

[I_Believe]

Where does scripture say that saints become Saints by proclamation of the "Church" and that they obtain some special ability to hear the prayers of people all over the world?

Just curious. I have not found it. But maybe you can show me.

 

That would be Matthew 16:19, Luke 10:16, Mark 12:26-27, Romans 8:35-39, Romans 12:10, 1 Thessalonians, and Galatians 6:2. None of the citations is from the Deuterocanonical Books (which are in the Alexandrian canon, where the Septuagint is from; and were considered "inspired" by even the original King James Version of 1611, and I try not to use Deuterocanonical Book citations.)

Even if I allowed that this power was given to the Apostles in the form the Catholic Church would have us believe, there is no indication that it was to be passed on to others after the apostles established the Good News.  We can see by the THE SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS and all the conflict within the Catholic Church throughout history that there has not been this wonderful unified body of tradition that you would like to claim.

Good works are good and profitable to men. But they do not save him.

 
 
I don't think you know the difference between the objective work of Christ and the subjective. That is what is confusing you and why you don't understand Titus 3:4-8.

You keep saying it but you have not shown it to be true.

I don't think I can as I don't know what the Roman Catholic says about it. I don't know anything about the 'new law' either, in fact never heard of it.

Then what does your tradition say about the purpose and affect of the sacraments?

[Reba]

The Bible is the bases for Christian belief not the  workings of the early christians

Why ever would any one want to trace their beliefs to the the 1500 when we have the WORD to trace them too?


Sojurner can you show scripture for the practice of the stations of the Cross, can you show scriptural backing for the elevation of Mary? for the naming of the Pope as The Holy Father? The WORD of God is the written foundation ( blueprint). Jesus Christ is the living cornerstone, the builder, the Mastor carpinter. Keeping to the original set of blueprints would be a good idea for us all.

[Heidi]

Reba, I've asked him that question before, more than once. But since there is no scriptural evidence for his beliefs, he skirts around the issue trying to defend the catholic doctrine instead. He is not interested in Christ's words and has said that the gospel has no authority. Therefore, it's not Christ's words he's interested in, nor what the gospel says, only the catholic church which proves my point about worshipping false gods.

[sojourner]

I Believe,

That would be Matthew 16:19, Luke 10:16, Mark 12:26-27, Romans 8:35-39, Romans 12:10, 1 Thessalonians, and Galatians 6:2. None of the citations is from the Deuterocanonical Books (which are in the Alexandrian canon, where the Septuagint is from; and were considered "inspired" by even the original King James Version of 1611, and I try not to use Deuterocanonical Book citations.)

 Holy Scripture tells us that the Saints now asleep in the Lord are very much alive:  Matthew 29:31-32 - Mark 12:26-27, "But about the Resurrection of the dead: have you not read what God said to you, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?  He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."  And again: Revelation 20:4 - "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.  And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God...They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Also, Rev. 5:8,  Rev. 8:3ff, Rev. 7:13, Hebrews 12:22-23, James 5:16.
The other texts you used have nothing to do with "Invocation of the Saints".

Part of your problem is not in understanding Orthodoxy versus Roman Catholicism. We do not consider the Deuterocanonical Books inspired. They are informative but not on the same level as Scripture.  They have never been considered inspired by the Church. Rome has, but did so quite some time after they left the Church.

We can see by the THE SEVEN ECUMENICAL COUNCILS and all the conflict within the Catholic Church throughout history that there has not been this wonderful unified body of tradition that you would like to claim.

That is in fact the Unity. It is how the Church, using the text you cited in Matthew 16:19 gave the power and authorty to the Church to maintain that original Gospel. It is how the 'wolves' were dealt with when false teaching has led souls away from Christ.
There will always be wolves, both Christ and Paul stated as such.  False teaching cannot come from anywhere else than from within the Church.  If outside teachings are of the nature and influence that many are being led away, then they will also speak against them as they did the Gnostics.

You keep saying it but you have not shown it to be true

History is so glutted with the evidence it is a wonder you have not read any.
But to get you started I have listed some texts. I did not write them because they would make this post a dissertation.
Chapter 16, Didache
I Clement to the Corinthians: Chapters 8, 21, 28-35;
Ignatius to Ephesians, Chapters 6, 14.
Ignatius to Magnesians: Chapters 9, 11, 13.
Polycarp to the Philippians: Chapters 2, 3,8,10.
First Apology of Justin, Chapter 2.

Then what does your tradition say about the purpose and affect of the sacraments?

The Holy Apostolic Tradition uses the sacraments to heal body and soul, to strenghten faith and the daily living of our faith IN Christ. They are salvfic. Anything that brings you closer to perfection, of the mind of Christ and closer to the divine nature is salvfic.


 

[sojourner]

Reba,

The Bible is the bases for Christian belief not the  workings of the early christians

The Bible may be your sole basis, however, for the True Christian, it is God's whole revelation that comprises the basis. It is that Truth, for the NT portion of the Bible, that was given to the Apostles. They taught it orally and practiced it for several decades before anything was ever written. The Church depended on the practice that was established by the Apostles and as the writtings were completed they used them in the Liturgies, but it was primarily oral Tradition that ruled the day for almost 1200 years.  It was the Tradition that provided the original content for Scripture.  It comprises some of the oral and written testimony of witness of the early Christians. Consequently, Tradition provides the hermeneutic perspective by which any biblical writing is to be properly interpreted.
In many cases the Bible is giving interpretation of practices in the early Church. It also has corrections, in fact most of the Pauline corpus is corrective regarding what he had taught earlier.

Why ever would any one want to trace their beliefs to the the 1500 when we have the WORD to trace them too?

That is what I say. Most, with the exception of maybe one or two, all trace their presuppostions back to the 15th century.  You may use the Bible, but you have isolated it, taken it out of its historical context and content and attempt to devise a whole new belief system. The Bible is not self-authenticating, nor self-interpreting, nor is it a proof text.

Sojurner can you show scripture for the practice of the stations of the Cross, can you show scriptural backing for the elevation of Mary? for the naming of the Pope as The Holy Father? The WORD of God is the written foundation ( blueprint). Jesus Christ is the living cornerstone, the builder, the Mastor carpinter.

Respective of Roman Catholic doctrine and practice I know nothing about. I can give you reasons why they should not be.  They are becoming more attuned to Protestantism regarding their traditions. The very fact they consider tradition more important than scripture, and that they have added considerably to tradition as well as changed fundalmental beliefs is the reason the reformers rebelled primarily against tradition.  It truly has been blind leading the blind.
Scripture may be the written foundation but it is not the whole foundation. Christ is the cornerstone and ALL  of what He gave is important. Not just scripture, and definitely not out of context in which He gave it.

Keeping to the original set of blueprints would be a good idea for us all.

I could not have said it any better.

[sojourner]

Heidi,

Well, what can one say to someone who constantly intentionally misrepresents what one stated. You still refer to me as Catholic having no regard to the numberous corrections I have made to you, personally.
What I am about to explain will probably go way over your head again.
I am not Roman Catholic, however, I am catholic but Orthodox. There is a major difference. It might help you to understand if you read a little about the Orthodox. You might see the Light.

You'll see that personal authority regarding scripture is not Scriptual, that man-made traditions is what scripture is speaking about, not the Gospel and the Tradition in which it was given. That Tradition has been preserved by the Holy Spirit for 2000 years. That is the historical evidence that you lack in your personal interpretation, which is a personal revelaltion and a truth for only one. Christianity is for the masses, not for one person only.

[I_Believe]

sojourner,

Thank you for your gracious response.

I can't say that I agree with your conclusions or the basis of truth but I respect your sincerity.

I am sure of one thing and that is that I don't have all the answers.  What I do know is that when he is revealed, I will be like him.  Then I will know.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is. Everyone who has this hope set on him purifies himself, even as he is pure. Everyone who sins also commits lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away our sins, and in him is no sin. Whoever remains in him doesn't sin. Whoever sins hasn't seen him, neither knows him. (1Jo 3:2-6)

For now I will continue to seek God through His Word and His Spirit.

May God Bless you in your journey.

[sojourner]

I Believe,

With Christ's call and your seeking, you shall find.
The difference in your understanding of salvation and the Biblical one is found in two words of your quote above to me.
"purifies himself"
May God Bless you also.

[Heidi]

Well, Sojourner, I am a Christian, My doctrine is the bible, not a doctrine made up by men who think of themselves as holy. You don't have to believe the bible. You can believe a church doctrine instead which changes as fast as the weather. Jesus said; "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away." The words in the catholic doctrine have passed away MANY times. If one is more familiar with Jesus's words than any church doctrine, then he is following Jesus, not idol worshipping the minds of men.

[I_Believe]

Holy Scripture tells us that the Saints now asleep in the Lord are very much alive:  Matthew 29:31-32 - Mark 12:26-27, "But about the Resurrection of the dead: have you not read what God said to you, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?  He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."  And again: Revelation 20:4 - "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.  And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God...They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

"But about the Resurrection of the dead"

Context is the Resurrection of the dead (future) not those who sleep in Christ today.

"They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Nothing says that they are able to hear our thoughts and words and are to intercede for us.

He made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the surface of the earth, having determined appointed seasons, and the boundaries of their dwellings, that they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 'For in him we live, and move, and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.' (Act 17:26-28)

For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations." This is in the presence of him whom he believed: God, who gives life to the dead, and calls the things that are not, as though they were. (Rom 4:16-17)

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, our life, is revealed, then you will also be revealed with him in glory. (Col 3:3-4)

Or don't you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him; (Rom 6:3-8)

For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. (Rom 14:7-9)

Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can't inherit the Kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1Co 15:50-53)

When does the corruptible put on incorruption?  When are we all changed?  When is the corruption removed so that we may inherit the Kingdom of God?

Is Paradise and the the Kingdom of God the same?

[Part 1]

[I_Believe]

[Part 2]

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor. Yet I do not know what I shall choose. For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your advancement and joy of faith, so that your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again. (Phi 1:21-26)

If they could continue to communicate with him if he departed to be with Christ then why was it more needful to stay?  If you conclude that "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him" means together with conscious awareness of one another then he did not need to stay to be together with them.  The hand doesn't talk to the eye except in the flesh.  The head communicates to all parts but the parts don't talk directly to each other.  The head is aware of all things but not the parts.

For God didn't appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (1Th 5:9-10)

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised. If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain. Yes, we are found false witnesses of God, because we testified about God that he raised up Christ, whom he didn't raise up, if it is so that the dead are not raised. For if the dead aren't raised, neither has Christ been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable. But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ's, at his coming. Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. (1Co 15:13-26)

But we don't want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don't grieve like the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1Th 4:13-18)

knowing this first, that in the last days mockers will come, walking after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation... But don't forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2Pe 3:3-9)

Is there a scriptural account of the living communicating with those who sleep in Christ or asking those who have passed beyond the Earth to intercede for them?

Therefore, we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well pleasing to him. (2Co 5:6-9)

[Allinall]

Blackeyedpeas,

Nice copout. Don't have the answer so make a personal attack. That is always a sign or maturity.

No copout or attack on BEP's part.  Simply stating the truth.