So few will be saved

[Heidi]

Good post, BEP!!

[sojourner]

Blackeyedpeas, Judgenot,

If it is personal opinion which you did not refute one iota, then I think I can use Paul's instructions to Timothy regarding 'traditions of men'.  You claimed it was the Gospel of the Apostles yet you did not show it except to give your opinion of what you think it means.
You can, anyone can, believe what they choose, and I can respect that.  You and others can call it christian as many do,  but to call it the original gospel you will need to show it outside of your opinion.

What bothers me is such theological evasion is yet another way *NOT* to take Jesus seriously, to avoid obedience to Jesus, as a result of a dubious hermeneutic. It's a way of disobeying Jesus because of human traditions.

I did assume you might be familiar with these texts. None show that we are saved upon simple belief and faith, alone, static. I didn't think it would be necessary to list them. As to works for salvation, I don't know where you got that concept other than in your misunderstanding of what Salvation actually is for man.

I Pet 1:5
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awaken out of sleep; for now is our salvation
nearer than when we first believed.

Matt 10:22
And ye shall be hated by all men for My names's sake, but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

I John 3:2
Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. An every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.

James 2:14-26.

James 1:21-25

II Cor 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Phil 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phil 3:12
It is not as though I had already attained it, nor were already perfect...

Phil 3:14
press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Phil 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark those who so walk, as ye have us for an example,

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate, for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in and shall not be able.

Luke 9:23
If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

II Pet 3:18
But grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I Tim 4:16
Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine. Continue in them, for doing this thou shalt both save thyself and those who hear thee.

I Cor 3:9
For we are laborers together with God; ye are Gods's husbandry; ye are God's building.

There are many more of the same type of texts, if you need texts.

The issue boils down to the protestant construct of "merit" being attached to whatever the human being does in a relationship with God. Once you concede that ANYTHING human in relationship to God falls under some kind of "works/merit" definition then you have placed yourself philosophically in a box in which you HAVE to reject ALL human action and end up with a god who creates humanity then totally disregards anything human about us that he created us with. We believe God is so sovereign He can create a being in His image that is capable of sovereignly/freely accepting or rejecting Him.

If you can show that this view is not taught, has not been taught since the Apostles and has not been believed by thousands, possibly millions by now,  or show that your opinion actually is the Gospel once given to the Apostles and can be verified historically as the faith once given. Have at it.

[Heidi]

Sojourner, I don't think I've seen one quote of Jesus's words from you. You don't seem to think His words are as important as the apostles. That's too bad because if you understood his words first, then you would understand the apostles.

[sojourner]

Heidi,

I don't believe in any words.
I believe in Christ, who is the author of ALL words.
If your statement is a literal one, then you essentially have a Bible of only 4 Books, the Gospels with no authority..

[Allinall]

Blackeyedpeas, Judgenot,

If it is personal opinion which you did not refute one iota, then I think I can use Paul's instructions to Timothy regarding 'traditions of men'.  You claimed it was the Gospel of the Apostles yet you did not show it except to give your opinion of what you think it means.
You can, anyone can, believe what they choose, and I can respect that.  You and others can call it christian as many do,  but to call it the original gospel you will need to show it outside of your opinion.

What bothers me is such theological evasion is yet another way *NOT* to take Jesus seriously, to avoid obedience to Jesus, as a result of a dubious hermeneutic. It's a way of disobeying Jesus because of human traditions.

I did assume you might be familiar with these texts. None show that we are saved upon simple belief and faith, alone, static. I didn't think it would be necessary to list them. As to works for salvation, I don't know where you got that concept other than in your misunderstanding of what Salvation actually is for man.

I Pet 1:5
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awaken out of sleep; for now is our salvation
nearer than when we first believed.

Matt 10:22
And ye shall be hated by all men for My names's sake, but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

I John 3:2
Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. An every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.

James 2:14-26.

James 1:21-25

II Cor 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Phil 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phil 3:12
It is not as though I had already attained it, nor were already perfect...

Phil 3:14
press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Phil 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark those who so walk, as ye have us for an example,

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate, for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in and shall not be able.

Luke 9:23
If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

II Pet 3:18
But grow in the grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I Tim 4:16
Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine. Continue in them, for doing this thou shalt both save thyself and those who hear thee.

I Cor 3:9
For we are laborers together with God; ye are Gods's husbandry; ye are God's building.

There are many more of the same type of texts, if you need texts.

The issue boils down to the protestant construct of "merit" being attached to whatever the human being does in a relationship with God. Once you concede that ANYTHING human in relationship to God falls under some kind of "works/merit" definition then you have placed yourself philosophically in a box in which you HAVE to reject ALL human action and end up with a god who creates humanity then totally disregards anything human about us that he created us with. We believe God is so sovereign He can create a being in His image that is capable of sovereignly/freely accepting or rejecting Him.

If you can show that this view is not taught, has not been taught since the Apostles and has not been believed by thousands, possibly millions by now,  or show that your opinion actually is the Gospel once given to the Apostles and can be verified historically as the faith once given. Have at it.

My friend, you unfortunately confuse position with practice.  Your position is your practice.  Our practice is defined, empowered, and enacted within our unchangable position.

[sojourner]

Confused hardly, they are one and the same. However you think you have a commonality but in reality you have religion of one. Naturally, your positon could be unchangeable but history has also shown that is impossible.
When belief is formulated from one's own mind, one's own opinion it can be nothing but belief of one. It is definitely not universal nor even communal.

Take me up on my offer. Prove that OSAS is the gospel of the Apostles.

I would really like to see you prove that the 40,000 plus theories of what salvation consists of is ONE Faith.  They all come from the same source that you ascribe as unchangeableness.

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy To Sojourner,

If you keep studying your Bible, get a little bit of maturity under your belt, and learn how to rightly divide the Word of God, you'll see it for yourself.

I've learned that debating is a waste of time in most cases. I don't mind having a friendly discussion with people of more maturity. I simply have better things to do with my time.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[sojourner]

Blackeyedpeas,

Nice copout. Don't have the answer so make a personal attack. That is always a sign or maturity.

[Heidi]

Sojourner, how can you be a follower of christ when you don't know what He stood for?

[sojourner]

Heidi,

I can assure you that I am a follower of the Christ. However, I can also state, based on your earlier posts, that you and I have a vast difference in what Christ stood for.
I would be interested in hearing specifically what Christ stood for based on your understainding.

[Heidi]

I believe absolutely every word Christ said, Sojourner, and i have quoted them and explained them in detail. Not only have i not seen any quotes from you about what He said, but you specifically said that the gospels have no authority. So again, how do you know what Jesus stood for if you don't know His words, much less believe them? Just a guess? He said; "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away." Which words do you think He was talking about, Sojourner?

[ollie]

I am deeply saddened by how few are and actually will be saved. I can understand why Jesus wept so much. There is so much pride, arrogance, and God-hating in the world. It is simply much easier for human beings to believe in our own opinions instead of Christ's words because it feels good to think we're smart. Some days I just have to grieve the state of the human condition. What's even sadder is that all have a chance to be saved. But unfortunately, humility is too high a price for most people to pay for their salvation.

Pray hard.

[sojourner]

Heidi,

you specifically said that the gospels have no authority. So again, how do you know what Jesus stood for if you don't know His words, much less believe them? Just a guess? He said; "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away." Which words do you think He was talking about, Sojourner?

Well, Heidi, what I meant by the Gospels having no authority, was that they have no authority for you.  You have simply taken a Book out of its historical context and then ascribed presuppositions to it and attempted to prove them by some texts. That is not the Gospel that was once given.

Christ is the authority, not the Bible or any part of it.  He gave us much more than what is recorded in Scripture. Scripture is a record of some of what was given and what was put into practice by the Apostles in  the early Church. Christ guaranteed that oral tradition as it started and had been the norm throughout the OT.  Christ by establishing his Church, a concrete, real visible Church here on Earth as the repository of His Truth. It has all been explained very well and practiced for 2000 years already. I don't need it revised or reinterpreted for modern man which is mostly what I see on this board.  It can only be Gospel if it has been lived, believed, practiced as given from the Beginning. God does not change, His Truth does not (has not) change(d), His plan has not changed since before Creation.
Those are the Words I believe, because they are the Word.
And, Yes, absolutely, they shall not pass away. So why in the world do you depend on your own wisdom and intelligence to figure out what has already been in existance for 2000 years and get it wrong most of the time.

[I_Believe]

It can only be Gospel if it has been lived, believed, practiced as given from the Beginning. God does not change, His Truth does not (has not) change(d), His plan has not changed since before Creation.

You are correct.  It has always been by Grace through Faith  according to His mercy.  It has never been by works of the law or by works of righteousness.

But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; (Tit 3:4-8)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.  There is one Good News that was preached from the days of the elders to now.  It has never changed.  It has always been by faith through grace.  ALL the other stuff  comes after salvation "that we should walk in them".

Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be carried about with different and strange doctrines, for it is good for the heart to be established with grace, not with foods, in which those who have walked in them were not helped. (Heb 13:8-9)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all. But to each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (Eph 4:4-7)


Saved by GRACE through FAITH Yesterday, today and forever!

FAITH: Before Christ
"by it the elders obtained a good report"..."looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith"

Even as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Know therefore that those who are of faith, the same are children of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations will be blessed." So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

"faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it reckoned? Being in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision."..."he received a sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith while still uncircumcised; so that he might be the father of all those believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be imputed to them also"

Therefore as many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as innumerable as the sand which is by the sea shore, were fathered by one man, and him as good as dead. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and embraced them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

FAITH: While Christ
"But turning and seeing her, Jesus said, Daughter, be comforted; your faith has saved you. And the woman was saved from that hour."

"And He said to her, Your sins are forgiven. And those reclining with Him began to say within themselves, Who is this who even forgives sins? And He said to the woman, Your faith has saved you, go in peace."

FAITH: Now
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

"if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."

[sojourner]

I Believe,

ALL the other stuff  comes after salvation "that we should walk in them".

Everything that was posted is precisely correct. You have simply written scripture.
The only phrase that was not, is the quote above and that is not correct. That is precisely what personal salvation is all about. It is the correction of the person that it refers too and not the nature which was done by Christ on the Cross. If you understood the Apostolic explanation rather than some modern adaptation to it, you would also understand the difference.
Your first text of Titus 8: 3-4 disagrees with your philosophy within the very text. It does not help you and OSAS.
The false doctrines Paul has in mind is OSAS.
Show me anywhere prior to the 16th or 17th century that OSAS was believed by Christians.
Quoting Scripture  will not get you there. It is not the reading but the understanding that will get you there. But I might also add, not the understanding as you would like it to mean, but what it has always meant.