[he that Loves another has fulfilled the Law]

The only Way that the Law is blotted out in the life of an individual:

"Owe no man anything, but to Love one another: for he that Loves another has fulfilled the Law."

"For all the Law is fulfilled in one Word, even in this; 'You shall Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

For:

"Love will cover the multitude of [our] sins."

But:

"If we sin wilfully after that we have obtained the knowledge of the Truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin."

When we have allowed God to perfect His Love in our hearts, by Grace and Grace alone, by Faith in His ability to so do, only then does the Word "guarantee" us eternal Life (Luke 10:25-28, 1 Jn. 2:3-5, 1 Jn. 4:16-18, etc., etc.).

[potentially]

A common objection to what the Word of God says in regards to those who alone qualify for eternal Life - they being those in whose heart the Love of God has been perfected by Grace and Grace alone, is someone asking:

"But doesn't the Word say that we are under Grace and not the Law?"

Yes, of course it does.

Sadly, however, the reason for this, God's intention behind this, has been misunderstood and therefore perverted by many.

We were not taken out from under the Law by Jesus, so that we could live life lawlessly and still inherit eternal Life. "God forbid."

Any social system would decay if there were not Laws by which all its subjects must obey. The reason for laws is so that all can live harmoniously together with the least amount of fear of being harmed or otherwise having to suffer injustices. No man is an island, and whatever one person does will always have affects on others.

Man is rebellious by nature, both before and after conversion. So laws only intensify this. Like the old adage: rules were made to be broken.

So the Lord, knowing that man could not obey the law because of his rebellious nature, gave us a different method by which we could obey.

Grace came so that we could obey the Laws of God by the additional Grace of Love.

God said man is no longer required to obey His Laws to be saved from the curse of the Law, so he gave man the free gift of salvation and whatever additional Graces so that he could obey the Laws of God voluntarily, by Graces and Graces alone. The power of sin had thus been broken, and man was made free to obey God by the additional Graces of God.

But ever since the church's first century "ten thousand teachers of Christ," man has perverted God's intention, and in order to feed his unrepented of lawlessness, man devised his own twisted gospel which says that a person born from above can continue in sin without fear of judgment, without fear of not receiving eternal Life. But the Word does not provide so much as one promise of eternal Life to such lawless believers who have trampled on the intended purpose of Grace.

"For if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth, there remains no more sacrifice for our sins." (Para.)

While many of the passages promising eternal Life - not salvation, which is only the first step to said Life - are vague and tell us only to "believe" something about Christ, or that we have this Life by Grace, these passages don't specify what Grace - there are many - or exactly what must be believed.

While virtually all Christians today have merely surmised through intellectual conjecture that the Grace needed is only the born from above experience, and what must be believed is Christ's finished work that provides that New Birth experience, the Word never backs up such extreme presumptions. It never promises eternal Life just because we were born from above - although such New Birth is a necessary first step.

Most of the vague promises for eternal Life were spoken by Jesus, and the reason for their ambiguity is clear: man had not yet been given from the Father the full revelation of walking in God's Love. Such was ordained to be given at a later time through the apostles. Paul was the one who most wrote about this Love, him often using the examples of eating unclean meat to illustrate it. John also wrote in his epistles about the need for this Love to be perfected in our hearts as a required prerequisite for eternal Life. And remember, the Apostles were given the authority to bind in Heaven that which they bound in the earth.

So then God did not leave us without the full revelation of the true Gospel of Christ Jesus written in His Holy Word. He left us, through the Apostles, with the clearly defined requirements for eternal Life, namely us needing to be living in obedience to the NT's Two Commandments of Love, through the additional Grace of the Love of God being perfected in our hearts by Him (Luke 10:25-28, 1 Jn. 2:3-5, 1 Jn. 4:16-18, etc.).

In His Grace of Love for the potentially eternal souls of mankind, brother jim

brotherjim@mail.com

"Blessed are they who do His Commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the Gates into the [Holy] City. For outside is . . . whosoever loves and makes a lie."  - God through John in Rev. 22

Whoever,

After posting this same above thread starter on a half dozen Christian forums, I realized it was not complete enough for someone to fully understand.

So taking from among the couple hundred responses the general misunderstandings, I can offer a bit more.

The Word of God contains a number of promises to man of "eternal/everlasting Life." Every one comes with a qualifier attached, telling who exactly qualifies to receive this promise.

Sometimes the qualifier is vague, it telling us that we must "believe" in something in regards to Christ Jesus. So since they do not exactly say what must be believed, we must assemble all such scriptures. When we do, we do find some that say exactly what is needed to qualify for the promise.

Never once, not so much as one time, is eternal Life promised to those who were born from above (Jn. 3:3, AKA "born again" [KJV] - a misnomer), even though virtually the entire church has been beguiled into thinking that the promises do.

(Remember, salvation, the act of being saved, is not the same as eternal Life. Being saved saves us, protects and preserves us, from having to go to hell when we die, or otherwise suffering whatever wrath of God abides upon unbelievers. But then we are "redeemed" just before the New Millennium, and made to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, when He will separate "goat" "Christians" from "sheep" Christians, and deal with them accordingly [Matt. 25].)

But those promises of eternal Life that do specify the requirements tell us plainly, without any ambiguity, without any need for personal interpretation, clearly that unless the Love of God is perfected by Grace in our hearts, that which enables those born from above to, by Grace, walk in obedience to the NT's Two Commandments of Love, then we do not know Christ, have not remained in Him, and have ever right to fear our Day of Judgment (1 Jn. 2:3-5, 1 Jn. 4:16-18, etc.).

brother jim

[nowhere]

There is no easy way to state the Truth here . . .

. . . and their is no painless way for any Christian to receive it as Truth . . .

. . . but, nowhere in God's Holy Word does it say that by being "saved," "redeemed," etc., we will automatically inherit eternal Life.

Nowhere, not one place.

Nowhere in the Holy Scriptures does it equate the New Birth, in and of itself, with eternal salvation.

Nowhere, not one time.

It's just not there.

Yes, it is nearly unfathomable how virtually the entire church today believes that someone has eternal Life when they are born-again, but the Word simply never says that. No, never.

Granted, the Bible is clear that the New Birth is a required first step of Grace.

But God's Word also clearly states what additional steps of Grace are needed for eternal salvation.

Luke 10:25-28:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted [Jesus], saying, 'Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'

"He said unto him, 'What is written in the Law, how do you understand it to be?'

"And he answering, said, 'You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.'

"And He said unto him, 'You have answered correctly: this do, and you will live.'"

And, since we know elsewhere in the Word it says that "by the [fleshly] works of the Law shall no flesh be justified,"  we know that our required obedience to the NT Commandments of Love must be done by Grace and Grace alone.

While the Christian today, by and large, believes they will obtain eternal Life just by the New Birth alone, they have no scriptural foundation whatsoever for this belief. Such is merely a personal opinion and has no foundation in God's Word and its promises.

While the born-again believer thinks that they have come to intimately know God and have maintained that intimacy, God's Word says otherwise.

I John 2:3-5:

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments.

"He that says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His Commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him.

"But whoever keeps His Word, in him verily is the Love of God perfected: hereby we know that we are in Him."

So the only Standard upon which the church is given whereby they can all agree, the Bible, clearly and simply states that even if we think that we know God, if we are not living in obedience to the NT's Laws of Love, we are deceived.

Paul warned about such a perverted, beguiling form of the Gospel in 2 Cor. 11 (which many are also deceived to believe that he was writing about salvation by faith vs. works - which, true, is yet another perversion).

While many parts of the Bible are not clear as to their meaning, God knew the requirements for eternal Life were of such a priority that He left us undeniably clear scriptures whereby we could know exactly what we must do in order to obtain eternal salvation.

1 John 4:16-18:

"And we have known and believed the Love that God has to us. God is Love; and he that dwells in Love remains in God, and God in him.

"Herein is Love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world.

"There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears [the Day of Judgment] is not made perfect in Love."

(But of course, since the born-again Christian has already been beguiled and deceived into thinking they already possess eternal salvation, they, sadly, lack this fear of their Day of Judgment.)

Only when we have obtained the additional steps of Grace required, whereby the Love of God is then perfected in our hearts, do we have any justifiable right to expect the fullness of eternal rewards on Judgment Day.

Until and unless we have obtained by Grace the Love of God perfected in our hearts - which requires the specific, miraculous removal of all those enemies to Love that still remain in the heart of the Christian - the Christian will not receive:

1)  Entrance into the New Heaven

2)  A crown of Life

3)  Access to the Tree of Life

4)  Etc. (The other benefits of eternal salvation/eternal Life.)

The church is in clear violation of the most basic foundation of theology. If any allegedly true doctrine does not line up with all other scriptures, then we can know it is a doctrine only of man and not of God. And the doctrines of men cannot give anyone eternal Life.

It is plain and clear from just the above quoted passages alone, not to mention the preponderance of additional scriptures that are in agreement, that the widely declared Gospel of the evangelical and charismatic church today is not the true Gospel of Christ Jesus according to His Words.

[Allegedly] In His Grace of Love for the potentially eternal souls of mankind, brother jim

Copyright © 2003 by brother jim (brotherjim@mail.com). May be freely shared if this notice is included, and if done so without any charge.

[what shall I do to inherit eternal life?]

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted [Jesus], saying, 'Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?' He said unto him, 'What is written in the law, how do you understand it?' And he answering said, 'You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.' And He said unto him, 'You have answered correctly: this do, and you will live.'"

"But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, 'And who is my neighbor?' . . ."  

"'Love [even] your enemies'; . . ."  - Jesus

Whoever,

Oops, sorry, I almost forgot:

Numerous personal testimonies from those who have instantly received the Love of the Father perfected in their hearts - as well as some academic studies of same, can be read free on-line at www.EnterHisRest.org (sift as usual).

From their homepage, click on either "Testimonies" for those or "Entry Directions" for misc. writings (I'm just starting to explore the site myself, and last night found the writings of J.A. Wood under either the above general topic headings especially pertinent).

Under the "Test." I found the "Heritage Testimonies" subgroup of great delight.

For those unfamiliar with navigating Adobe Reader:

After you have selected a group or subgroup, if you hold down the "Shift" key while clicking on a particular testimony or writer, you will get the Adobe Reader as a full screen and not just a portion thereof.

Additionally, if you click on the icon in the toolbar at the top of the Adobe window that's labeled "Hide/Open Navigation Pane," you can hide the left navigation window thereby further enlarging the text window.

And yet again, you can also drop down the page size box and select "Fit Width" from the menu (this resulted in an 111% page size for me).

The above will keep you from going blind while trying to read the texts, as I eventually discovered after much straining ("Duh" to me).

Be blessed, bro. jim

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

"He that says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him.

"But whoso keeps His Word, in him verily is the Love of God perfected: hereby we know that we are in Him.

"He that says he remains in Him ought also so to walk, even as He walked.

"Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the Word which you have heard from the beginning. . . .

"I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one. . . .

"If any man love the world, the Love of the Father is not in him. . . .

". . . he that does the will of God remains forever. . . .

"Let that [Love and its commandment] therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

"And this is the promise that He has promised us, even eternal Life. . . .

"And now, little children, remain in Him; that, when He will appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. . . .

"Whosoever remains in Him does not sin: whosoever sins has not seen Him, neither known Him.

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, . . .

". . . whosoever does not do righteousness is not of God, neither he that does not Love his brother. . . .

"For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should Love one another. . . .

"My little children, let us not Love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in Truth. . . .

"And he that keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him.

"We are of God: he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God does not hear us. Hereby we know the Spirit of Truth, and the spirit of error.

"Beloved, let us Love one another: for Love is of God; and everyone that Loves is born of God, and knows God.

"He that does not Love does not know God; for God is Love. . . .

". . . God is Love; and he that abides in Love remains in God, and God in him.

"Herein is our Love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world. . . .

". . . and everyone that Loves Him that [gave new birth to him] also Loves [them] who are begotten of Him.

"By this we know that we Love the children of God, when we Love God, and keep His commandments.

"For this is the Love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous. . . .

"I rejoiced greatly that I found my children walking in Truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.

"And now I beseech you . . . not as though I wrote a new commandment unto you, but that which we have heard from the beginning, that we Love one another.

"And this is Love, that we walk after His commandments. This is the commandment, that, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. . . .

"Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things which we have gained, but that we receive a full reward."

The Epistles of John

Hello Whitehorse,

You are close, but kindly indulge me in my additions:

Hi, all. What I'm gathering about this, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that Brother Jim is saying that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and not by works, that any man should boast.

But that does not mean works are not required. They are required, as it is written:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? James 2:14 KJV

Up to this point you were right on.

In the Word, Paul - and perhaps others - were terse with their mention of "works." There are many types of works referred to in the Word, such as "works of God" and "works of the flesh."

It has therefore been left up to us, the church since, to take into account all of the scriptures, and then also apply some very basic Christian principles that are foundational to all things spiritual, and determine what the Apostles implied. (This is not to say that there are not other elements needing to be applied in order for us to form doctrine - such as investigating the original language, but the two above are main.)

So as too concise a statement, we can see elsewhere in the word how no man is justified by works, and how the flesh is of no profit in God's Kingdom, and thereby safely deduce that the works you refer to in James are works of the Spirit, the "works of God," and not works of our flesh.

The works of God have no fleshly element. They are self-contained entities and do not need anything from man and man's flesh. While the Word literally says to do them, we don't do them in the sense of conjuring up something from our flesh so as to perform them. We do them when we allow God to remove whatever is in our flesh that opposes them operating.

But the Fruits of the Spirit, godly Wisdom, any specific Christian activity, etc., are to be those that God supernaturally manifests through us, and performs by his Spirit alone. We just stay out of the Way.

As an example, if as a born-again believer I still have hiding within my heart, some unforgiveness or hatred or vengeance or even some deep scars from being hurt because maybe my love for someone was rejected, since any of these can be strong enough to exist as a heart idol, this idol must first be removed by God before Love perfected can replace it. If it were not so done, it would eventually lead us to more sin, because when god would want to manifest an act of His Love through us, we might not allow it to flow.

This is not to say we must be sinless before walking in the fullness of these Fruits such as Love, for if that were true then we would never be readied to receive them, amen? But whatever specific idol of the heart that may stand in the way of whatever dichotomous Fruit of the Spirit, must be dealt with now so that we can receive the Fruit.

The distinction is, the works, although required, are not the element that saves.

Not true.

You are stating the generally believed upon doctrine of the church, the tradition of men. This has been instilled into your thinking because this what you have heard preached, or maybe you surmised it yourself from the Word.

As painful as it is for you or anyone to hear it: that teaching is error, and is a part of the beguiling Gospel Paul warned his followers about in the Word.

Kindly read again, from 1John4:16-18:

"And we have known and believed the Love that God has to us. God is Love; and he that dwells in Love dwells in God, and God in him. Herein is Love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world. There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears [the Day of Judgment] is not made perfect in Love."

When the Love of the Father is instantly perfected in us, only then are we assured of eternal Life.

These works of God, works of the Spirit, works of Love are required - as difficult as that is for someone to believe, especially since we look around us in the church and can see not one person so perfected.

(But actually, although they truly are rare here in the Western world, you cannot determine by your five senses whether or not another has been perfected in Love. Even the very nature of Love - "[Love] does not vaunt itself" - precludes its recipients from boasing about it. And those few times they may have tried to share its testimony with another, has most likely resulted in persecution and hatred and despisings, so they become conditioned to keep it mostly to themselves.)

If I'm perceiving you right, it's the truth. There are many that think believing in Christ is the end of the story, they can pretty much do as they like; they think it's all paid for. But this is not true saving faith. Two scriptures that demonstrate this are the parable of the talents [Matthew 25:14-30] and the parable of the wedding feast, which talks about the necessity of righteousness [Matthew 22:1-14].

Yes, with the above exception - and it's a big hurdle for you to overcome because it is so well drummed into us, you are indeed perceiving me correctly, and yes it is the Truth for us only because god has specifically revealed it to us as being the Truth, amen? So there's then no boasting for us.

Of a Truth: the born-again experience is not an end in itself, but a means to an end, that end being for us to obey the commandments of Love (and this is only possible to be done by God Himself, which He does through the additional Grace of His Love perfected in our hearts).

May the Heavenly Father bless you with every spiritual blessing that He has in store for you in the Heavenlies; including your being delivered from any enemies to Love that may still hide in your heart, known or unknown to you, and then replace that void with His Love completly perfected; in the Name of Christ Jesus, Name above all names, Lord of all lords, and King of all kings and a soon-coming world without end. Amen. Amen.

In His Love for you, whitehorse, bro. jim

He will do for us when we repent of our inability to do for ourselves.

Okla. Cowboy,

P.S. (I can't enable the edit feature for some reason.)

In other words, most of the New Test. Books were letters/epistles written by the Apostles to those converts of theirs that were already walking in the Love of the Father perfected in their hearts.

But since it would be unrealistic for them to expect that all who would read or hear read their letters to their "children" had Love perfected in them - since some if not many if not most will receive this blessing as an event subsequent to the New Birth, they often included commandments such as "walk in Love" and the like. And besides that, we do still have to remain stedfast in Love unto the end, and "faint not."

(But the church by-and-large has assumed this to imply that the Apostles did not recognize any as already having this Love perfected. Tradition sees this as an option, as an realistically unattainable goal that we all as Christians should strive for. But Fruits of the Spirit cannot be gradually grown; neither is Love perfected optional, as can be clearly seen as someone reads through John's epistles and takes his words literally, at their face value.)

The Love of the Father perfected in our hearts - to repeat, is a Grace given just as instantly and completely and miraculously as is the New Birth.

bj

Oklahoma Howdy to BrotherJim,

Ephesians 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;); 6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus; 7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Howdy to you . . .

and thank you for finally talking to us with the scriptures and not just claiming that there are some which support your opinion.

(But I'm still about 20 or so ahead, so get to work {-_-} .

(Not that this is a competition: although it is a competition, we are all hopefully on the same team against the true adversary and enemy of our souls, amen?)

Whenever we engage to form doctrine, many things must be brought into the picture.

To begin, in regards to any specific verse, we must ask:

Who is speaking?

Who is he speaking to?

Who is he speaking about?

In other words, we cannot make the widespread atrocity so many do, and just assume that if it is in the Bible then it refers to us if we were born-again.

Next we must understand that if any given Apostle was not speaking of everybody, of whom was he?

The apostolic Gospel message that you read at the start of this thread is as it was preached by the first apostles - or so I allege.

In other words, those such as John in his epistles refer to as "children," were deemed so because they came to the Lord through his evangelizing. As such, when they first repented for the New Birth, they were already taught their failure in obeying God's commandments of Love . . .

". . . that commandment that you have heard from the beginning. . . ."

So whereas today someone might be led in a "sinner's prayer" asking forgiveness for their substance abuse or fornication or the like, the "children" of John and Paul and Peter were repenting from their failures and inabilities to Love (as well as self-righteousness and whatever other things, of course).

We can further understand this by reading 2Cor.11, and seeing how very afraid Paul was that those who he had "espoused" (KJV) might still fall for some lesser, watered down version that was preached during the first church age as well.

Not all in Paul's day considered him an apostle. Paul was only an apostle to those who God revealed him as truly such, and they therefore submitted to the apostolic Gospel message.

But there were also "ten thousand teachers of Christ Jesus" who were "not of [Paul's type of message], for had they been of us they would not have departed from us." (Para.?) These were preaching a less than perfect version of the Good News, likely similar to what is predominant in the church today.

While I suppose most Christians are today "standing on" some verse from the scriptures, allegedly by God's Faith, they have isolated that verse or those verses, and have hid from the qualifier[i/] that is always attached somewhere either before or after the scripture being stood upon. The qualifier is what gives permission for someone to rightfully use it.

As an example:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."

Many think this a verse all by itself, and therefore unknowingly use it even against God's Spirit when He tries to convict them of some sin as part of the ongoing process of sanctification.

But let's consider it in at least a bit more context:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Aha! There's the added qualifier.

Sometimes, in order for someone to understand who a verse is applicable to, they must go all the way back to the start of that Book of the Bible. These Books were not a manual for all who were born-again, but letters written by Apostles to their "children."

And God, being so gracious as He is, gives us "two or three witnesses" whereby we can know what Truth of His is truly established, and will therefore often also include throughout any given Book of the Bible, additional and specific qualifiers.

Now as another example, let us look at what you have quoted from Ephesians 2. Whereas you stopped with verse 7, let's just add one more verse and see how it continues:

"For by Grace are you saved through Faith, and that [Faith, by implication] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

So we can see first:

It speaks of those "saved."

Second:

It speaks of those saved "by Faith."

So we can ask ourselves:

Who is saved?

Now you would say that the New Birth = saved, correct? But you have not provided any scripture in the Bible that says that in and of itself, whereas I have provided 1Jn2 that says very plainly who has Christ within them:

"And hereby we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Word, in him [of a truth] is the Love of God perfected: hereby we know that we are in Him."

And I have provided 1Jn4:16-18 which states very clearly who can be assured of eternal Life:

"And we have known and believed the Love that God has to us. God is Love; and he that dwells in Love dwells in God, and God in him. Herein is Love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world. There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears [the Day of Judgment] is not made perfect in Love."

So I would have to ask you, how does what you have quoted from Ephesians, or any other passages to which we can apply presumtion and conjecture and opinion, have pre-eminence over what is clearly stated in 1 John above? (And there are more.)

Getting back to "your" Ephesians 2:

Have "Faith" in what?

You would say, as does church tradition, that it means to have Faith in the born-again experience as by itself yielding eternal Life.

But I, on the other hand, would say that it means to have Faith in the Graces of God purchased by Jesus' Blood, which Graces generally be:
1) The Grace of the born-again experience, and;
2) The Grace of the Love of the Father perfected in our hearts, and:
3) The Grace of the Power of Jesus to enable us to endure in both the above until the end of our earthly Life - and beyond.

And the passages I quote from 1John above both give witness to these required Graces, so that I need not add conjecture or be presumptuous or add personal opinion.

See the difference?

Now I've already spent a great deal of time on this, and if I spent more I'm nearly certain I could find more qualifiers in the Book of Ephesians that you quote, and which disqualify many born-again Christians from that which it speaks of.

But why don't you find these qualifiers for yourself, and let God's Spirit guide you into His Truth?

In His Love also for born-again Okies, bro. jim

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted [Jesus], saying, ‘Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal Life?’ He said unto him, ‘What is written in the Law, how do you read it?’ And he answering said, ‘You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.’ And He said unto him, ‘You have answered right: this do, and you will live.’" Luke 10

But, since we also know:

". . . by the deeds of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight: . . ." Romans 3;

and:

". . . the flesh profits nothing: . . ." John 6;

then there must be some way other than by the flesh whereby we are enabled to obey the commandments of Love and inherit eternal Life.

That Way is through the S(s)pirit, by the Love of the Father perfected in our heart, which is available to the born-again Christian just as instantly and miraculously and completely as is the New Birth.

"And hereby we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Word, in him [of a truth] is the Love of God perfected: hereby we know that we are in Him."

Conversely, --.

In His Love for the souls of mankind, bro. jim

Oklahoma Howdy to BrotherJim,

We already know that Salvation is by faith, not of works, and an undeserved, unearned GIFT by the Grace of God. We should easily find in the Scriptures that man's ONLY perfection and righteousness is imputed to God's children ONLY through the BLOOD OF JESUS. The same would be true of a PERFECTED LOVE the Scriptures refer to.

Yes, God's children can and should strive for perfected love and living without sin. However, the ONLY PERFECTION seen will be in the BLOOD OF JESUS, imputed to our account. Apart from the BLOOD OF JESUS, all of God's children would be bankrupt in their perfection and righteousness accounts. This is the beauty and majesty of the Gospel of God's Grace. When God looks at HIS children, he sees JESUS, because we are IN HIM and HE is in us. JESUS is our ONLY PERFECTION, RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND PERFECTED LOVE.

In Christ.

Dear BEP,

I understand what you are saying.

And truly, you bring several Truths into your argument.

The problem lies within the [alleged by me] fact that you have combined them with traditions of men and presumtions and conjectures.

Truly, ALL Grace has been made available only because of the sacrifice of Christ's pricless shed Blood.

But the thread was not about that.

The thread is about what must exist within us in order that we be assurred of eternal salvation on the Day of Judgment, to with what the Word clearly says:

"And we have known and believed the Love that God has to us. God is Love; and he that dwells in Love dwells in God, and God in him. Herein is Love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world. There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears [the Day of Judgment] is not made perfect in Love." 1 John 4:16-18

In His Love for you, bro. jim

(See also how Jesus directly answered those who came to Him asking the requirements of eternal Life - of which Nicodemus was not one.)

Dear Christian,

What I am about to share may at first sound like some "works gospel" and me of some cult. Neither is true, and anyone would do well to read through this post to the end and even afterwards take it all to God in prayer before reaching any personal conclusion.

Nearly all of you who have experienced the New Birth, if not all, likely did so upon hearing or reading some type of Gospel message, of how people need to be born-again to have a relationship with God. But it was an incomplete message.

In Truth, we are not eternally saved by the New Birth alone. Let's view John 3:

"'Verily, verily, I[, Jesus,] say unto you, except a man be born-again, he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God.'" (Verse 3)

"'Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO the Kingdom of God.'" (Verse 5)

Now, tradition teaches us that verse 5 is a mere amplification, a further explanation, of verse 3. It is not. They are two separate events.

We need FIRST to be born-again so that we can "SEE" God's Kingdom, because the true things of God "are [only] spiritually discerned" (1Cor.2:14).

But "see[ing]" the Kingdom of God is only the first step of Grace. And seeing is not the same as being a part of eternally.

The NEXT step of Grace needed for us to be saved, is for us to "ENTER INTO" the Kingdom. This is done through the addition of "water," that water being how we are "sanctif[ied] and cleanse[d] . . . with the washing of water by the Word" (Eph. 5:26).

". . . according to His Mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." Titus 3:5b

But in order for us to have that Holy Word to cleanse and sanctify and regenerate us, we must hear it through our spiritual ears. And in order to hear it and believe, it must be apostolically preached and anointed by God (and anointed in both the speaker and in the listener).

The apostolic word we must spiritually hear for us to "enter into the Kingdom of God" is thus:

We can know we are eternally saved when we walk in God's Love, in the Love of the Father perfected in our hearts (1Jn. 2:5; 4:12).

Now while the Father commanded through Jesus that we must walk in unconditional, perfect Love towards both God Himself and every human being, even all our enemies, so it is therefore a Law of God, we know that no man has ever been able to keep God's Law. So we who were first born-again must be enabled to keep the Law of Love some way other than through any work of our flesh. That Way is Grace.

We who truly are are saved by Grace, not only because Grace bought for us the opportunity to be born-again but because it also made available the ability for those so reborn to walk completely and perfectly in God's Love, to do so by Grace, by God's Spirit of Grace.

"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?" Gal. 3:3

First someone should notice that there's both something to be "begun in" AND another to be "made perfect by."

God's Love is the main Grace purchased for us by Jesus' Blood that leads us to perfection. This Love is not done by us. It's not possible for human flesh to Love God and all people perfectly at all times.

"It is the Spirit that gives Life; the flesh profits nothing: . . ." John 6:63a

God's perfect Love is done by God through us; it is not we who Love, but Grace in us that Loves through us. We're its conduit.

". . . Love is the fulfilling of the Law." Romans 13:10b

"For all the Law is fulfilled in one Word, in this; 'You shall Love. . . .'" Gal. 5:14a

So we can see that although Jesus "blott[ed] out" the Law for the Christian, He didn't do so in the sense of erasing it, but He "took it out of the way, nailing it to His Cross; . . ." (Col.2:12.) The Laws of God are hanging from the Cross, hanging from Grace. And He was justified in doing so because the Love He made available, when in operation, obeys the Laws of God in and of Itself.

So how do we know that the Laws of Love are those specific Words of God which is that Water we need to be sanctified, washed, cleansed, regenerated and renewed with, and which therefore yields eternal salvation?

 "And we have known and believed the Love that God has to us. God is Love; and he that dwells in Love dwells in God, and God in him. Herein is Love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgment: because as He is [perfect in Love], so are we in this world. There is no fear in Love; but perfect Love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears [the Day of Judgment] is not made perfect in Love." 1 John 4:16-18

(The words in brackets added to the above were necessary because the errors of tradition have trained the Christian mind to misunderstand and misuse this passage. Just recall how the "perfect love casts out fear" phrase is thrown around by Christians and used in any sense but the one for which it was intended.)

But of course, we can also obtain a false sense of security to assist us in denying the possibility that we will receive something far less on Judgment Day than what Christians are usually too casually expecting. This erroneous hope is not based upon God's Faith and the Word, but upon our own faith of the flesh and mind, and our own interpretation of scriptures (e.g. thinking we are saved solely by being born-again).

If we will truly repent of any self-righteous works of our flesh in trying to Love God's Way, and commit ourselves unto obedience of His Laws of Love by letting HIM work It through us as we get out of Its Way (which means we also let God remove from our hearts and lives those unclean elements still hiding within us that are enemies to His Love), then we are candidates for true, "ETERNAL salvation":

"And being made perfect, He[, Jesus,] became the Author of ETERNAL salvation unto all THEM THAT OBEY HIM."

How do we "obey Him"? We Love as He has commanded us.

"A new commandment I give unto you, that you Love one another; as I have Loved you, that you also Love one another." John 13:34

But, sadly, those who read this and who have experienced the New Birth have already been "beguiled" by a less than perfect Gospel message (2Cor.11). It will be a difficult thing for such to admit the possibility that they may no longer remain in the state of Grace once experienced when they were born-again - actually an impossible thing to realize and admit apart from the miraculous Grace of God needed to reveal it.

Tradition has embedded into the thinking of the evangelical and charismatic Christian that the New Birth was an end in itself, and not rather a means to some end, that end being more Grace leading to regeneration leading to salvation. (And if once truly born-again, the Christian can easily be presently living based upon the MEMORY of what once really happened, and not the needed-fresh-daily reality of His "Spirit Itself bearing witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" [Rom.8:16].)

Tradition, and religious cults composed of self-righteous workers of self-righteous works, have further hardened the Christian's heart against the idea that there are any works whatsoever connected with salvation, even including any necessary further works of regeneration done by the Spirit.

But with the above full proclamation in mind, read again your New Testament, praying that the Heavenly Father opens your spiritual understanding to whatever is Truth, thereby using the Holy Bible and His Spirit to either confirm or deny what is claimed here as the only Way to spend eternity with Jesus in the soon-coming new Heaven.

This perfect Love of the Father can be received just as instantly and supernaturally and completely as is the New Birth. For those so committing themselves in mind to the Law of God (Romans 7), to obey His commandments to Love as Grace enables them, they will be allowed by the Lord to face situations where God's Love is needed. The Christian will then choose to either harden their heart, or hopefully instead exercise the measure of Love already given them in the New Birth, and when found not enough (or non-existent) then fall in a heap of failure and nothingness and inability at the foot of the Cross, reaching out by Faith for the fullness of God's perfect Love just as was once similarly done for the New Birth.

God is not a hypocrite: He would never command us to do something that He did not also make available the additional Graces needed for us to obey. Those Graces are usually given first as Love, then Joy or Peace or Meekness or whatever other Fruit of the Spirit is next needed in all its Power of fullness, in order that we might do the works of God and the works of Christ, and "overcome" as Jesus also overcame.

"To him that overcomes I[, Jesus,] will give to eat of the Tree of Life. . . ."

". . . therefore choose Life, . . ."

Copyright © 2003 by brother jim - Box 124, Allentown, PA, 18105-0124, USA - brotherjim@mail.com - may be shared if done so without charge and if this notice is included.

I'm just wondering, are you in the "shepherding" movement, brotherjim...?

No. (Didn't that fail yet?)

There is a hierarchy man wills to lord over others, and then there's a spiritual hierarchy that God has elected and ordained. Only disobedience to the latter will disqualify us from the victorious Christian life now, and [at least] the fulness of eternal rewards later.

Kindly keep arrogance out of any future posts, as its very difficult to answer you when such stares God and me in the face. (Prov. 6:16-17a, etc.)

Please.

Thank you.

(And if you could delete the rolling teddy bear, I know the Lord Jesus would be greatly blessed - as would I.)

[Allegedly] In His Love, Meekness and Long-suffering for you, bro. jim

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www.aoc.InJesus.com

Brotherjim
  True, unanswered prayer can often be attributed to these things you mentioned. I dont think that there are any apostles in our world now though, so that is irrelevant to the pastors(elders) who are always odd numbered so as to come to answers from within.

Incorrect: it most certainly is relevant.

The entities of the world are not some new invention of mankind - "there's nothing new under the sun." Our earthly chain of commands are modeled after the Heavenlies.

The company that you work for - assuming you do, would not be very successful for very long if it did not have at its head a CEO who, first, established the overall vision of the company, and, two, delegated how that vision is to become reality to the management and rank and file.

Likewise, each generation of the church was intended to have true apostles, genuine prophets, etc. To the apostles are given to know the mysteries of the Gospel kept well-hidden from the world and that part of the church which lives like the world - which be most. Without the apostles, there is no Vision of what the heart of the Heavenly Father wills to do in the world. (Prophets can only offer small slivers of the Vision, except when they are submitted to an apostle, from whom they will obtain the overall Vision.)

There most certainly are God-appointed apostles in the world today, but you will not find them on the popular Christian TV shows, neither find their books on the best seller list nor see them listed at the paid top of internet pages when you surf the search engines. They are kept hidden from all those except to whom the Lord wills to reveal them.

We most assuredly better at least hope there are apostles today, otherwise the church has no chance of escape from its present state of being nearly totally impotent.

Prayer is a fundamental part of any assembly of believers being lifted up and blessed by God. I think what you are really getting at is the lack of blessing an assembly will feel if the Bible is not being opened and read in its entirety. If the Bible is not seen as a whole, then different parts will be given priority. If this happens then souls are simply not aligned right to begin with. They may be saved, but if they are not aligned right in they're gathering with an assembly then yes they may not be asking for the right help from God.

You definately show some godly Wisdom here above, but you have not carried the thought fully through to its conclusion.

Yes, the church is imbalanced. But they are so because they lack the missing pieces of the puzzle, i.e. the "mysteries" unveiled in their entirety.

Even if we take the Faith part from the WoFers, and the charismata part from the charismatics, and the Grace part from the --, and pour them all together, we still lack some pieces needed through apostolic revelation. (Not to mention lack the apostolic authority which is needed to betroth us to the bride [2Cor11].)

 

Prayer itself, however, is grown in private. It is not a word but an expression of need from a soul to its God. Prayer is spoken of in a natural sense from the world, but the world doesn't understand what it is saying. The nature of prayer is the expression of need. Those who have never had a prayer answered are not yet saved. Even the work of salvation is the answering of a prayer, which shows prayers nature. We are told to pray in a closet, and many descriptions in the Bible show people getting on their knees in reverance. So we know that prayer is a serious matter in its appearance, but it is a "genuine matter" to the person.

Again you show promise (I'm sorry if that comes across as condescending). You correctly understand the need for intimate prayer in our "closets." And as you said, "it's an expression of need," but the problem is we do not know what we need. We do not know because we do not see Jesus correctly. That correct understanding is a part of the Vision given to true apostles, and needed by the believer.

Those of us in the church have thought we could be our own shepherds, but even the pastor cannot be his own shepherd - and those who are still being appointed by men above them are not the same as GOD'S hierarchial selections (consider Matthias in Acts - man's choice and not God's).

But we have all, and each, gone our own way, being our own "little gods."

When will we admit we have failed miserably? How much longer must this pitiful resemblance of a church continue before we take our heads out of the sand? [Rhet.]
 
 

Our prayer life needs us to be as active as we were in salvation. What did you do in salvation? Nothing. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all.

Incorrect.

And not only that, it is a very dangerous part of the beguiling philosophy of our adversary (2Cor11 - NOT about salvation by grace vs. works, btw). I once termed what you are expressing, "extreme passivity."

Our Christian life most certainly cannot be as you say, merely reacting to what God does in the spirit realm - as we did when we were born-again.

We are COMMANDED in the Word to "be zealous for,"  "earnestly seek," "fervent[ly pray]," "fast," etc., etc.

Yes, it's by Grace we can do this, and it may even be by Grace whereby we are drawn to do it, but it's by extreme passivity whereby we sear our conscience from initiating those thing required to obtain the victorious Christian life, the fulness of eternal rewards, and a corporate effect of the church upon a suffering humanity and senseless world. All this is only possible through it being first unveiled by the Vision entrusted the apostles and those prophets and evangelists and pastors submitted to them.

It all requires apostolic AUTHORITY, and the believer submitting to it, just as your company requires upper mgmt. authority, and the employees submitted to it.

Very good thought-provoker, though. God bless you!

In His Love for you, your brother, jim

www.aoc.InJesus.com