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Ambassador4Christ
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« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2003, 12:58:34 PM »

HOW TO KNOW YOUR SPIRITUAL GIFT

THERE ARE THREE MAIN PASSAGES IN THE BIBLE CONCERNING SPIRITUAL GIFTS

I COR 12

ROM 12

EPH 4

WHAT IS A SPIRITUAL GIFT? THAT SUPERNATURAL ABILITY GIVEN BY GOD, NEVER BEFORE KNOWN BY THE RECIPIANT, TO FULFILL A SPECIFIC PURPOSE.

I COR 12:1 CONCERNING SPIRITUAL GIFTS, I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU IGNORANT

I COR 12:7- LIST THE GIFTS

WORD OF WISDOM

WORD OF KNOWLEDGE

FAITH

HEALING

WORKING OF MIRACLES

PROPHECY

DISCERNING OF SPIRITS

DIVERS KINDS OF TONGUES

INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES

THERE IS NO CLEAR WORD OF GOD DEFINING THESE GIFTS

I COR 13...CONTINUES THE THEME OF SPIRITUAL GIFTS

I COR 13:8-13 READ

IT IS CLEAR THAT AT THE TIME PAUL WROTE I COR. THAT THE GIFTS WERE IN EFFECT

BUT,

I COR 13:8 GIFTS BEING DONE AWAY WITH

WHETHER THERE BE PROPHESIES, THEY SHALL FAIL

THIS DOES NOT MEAN PROPHECIES CONTINUE, BUT FAIL TO COME TRUE

PAUL SAYS THERE WILL COME A TIME WHEN THE GIFT OF PROPHECY WILL CEASE TO FUNCTION OR BE IN EFFECT

WHETHER THERE BE TONGUES, THEY SHALL CEASE

THIS DOES NOT MEAN PEOPLE WILL STOP TALKING

WHETHER THERE BE KNOWLEDGE, IT SHALL VANISH AWAY

THIS IS NOT SAYING THAT A TIME IS COMING WHEN MAN WILL BE STUPID

THESE THREE GIFTS REPRESENT ALL THE GIFTS OF CHAPTER 12, AND ALL THESE GIFTS WILL BE DONE AWAY WITH AT A FUTURE DATE

Grace & Peace
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« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2003, 01:13:01 PM »

WHY...WHEN

I COR 13:9

FOR WE KNOW IN PART

WE PROPHESY IN PART

THE CONTEXT HERE IS KNOWLEDGE IN AN INCOMPLETE STATE

PAUL HAD, AT THIS TIME, ONLY RECEIVED A PART OF THE KNOWLEDGE HE WAS GOING TO RECEIVE

I COR 13:10

BUT WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT IS COME THEN THAT WHICH IS IN PART SHALL BE DONE AWAY

NOTICE: THE CONTEXT THAT WHICH IS IN PART = KNOWLEDGE

THAT WHICH IS PERFECT = KNOWLEDGE SO,

WHEN THE PERFECT KNOWLEDGE IS COME THE INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE IS DONE AWAY WITH

SOME TEACH THAT THE PERFECT IS JESUS CHRIST, BUT THAT IS NOT TRUE. THE CONTEXT MENTIONS NOTHING ABOUT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. THE CONTEXT IS KNOWLEDGE

HE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT A PERSON, BUT A THING WHICH IS COMING

IF THIS IS ABOUT CHRIST COMING BACK,

THEN THE GIFTS MUST COME TO AN END WHEN HE COMES BACK, (I COR 13:Cool

BUT WE SEE THAT IN ACTS 2:16 THAT PETER QUOTES JOEL ABOUT THE SPIRIT POURING OUT IN THE LAST DAYS WHEN CHRIST COMES BACK, WHEN GIFTS ARE INCREASED NOT STOPPED. THE GIFTS ARE IN MAIN OPERATION AS A SIGN OF THAT TIME.

THE WORD PERFECT, IN THIS CONTEXT, MEANS MATURE, COMPLETE, FULL

PHIL 3:12 ...ALREADY ATTAINED..ALREADY PERFECT

3:15..LET US AS BE PERFECT

PAUL IS NOT SAYING HE IS SINLESS..PERFECT DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN SINLESS

II TIM 3:16-17 SCRIPTURE FOR US TO BE PERFECT..MATURE...COMPLETE ..THIS IS THE LAST EPISTLE OF PAUL. NOTICE THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE PERFECT, TO KNOW IN FULL, BUT AT THE TIME PAUL WROTE TO THE CORINTHIANS, THEY DID NOT HAVE THE FULL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD BECAUSE IT HAD NOT BEEN WRITTEN, SO THEY COULD ONLY KNOW IN PART.

TODAY WE DO NOT NEED THE GIFTS BECAUSE WE NO LONGER KNOW IN PART, WE HAVE THE COMPLETED WORD OF GOD, TO MAKE US PERFECT UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK

Grace & Peace
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« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2003, 08:03:00 PM »

You have been taught that these gifts are supernatural "signs" of Gods power that were necessary for evangelism because the canon of Scripture had not yet been completed.
You often site 1 Cor 13:8-12 were Pual says

 8;Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9;For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.  
   
 10;But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.  
   
 11;When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.  
   
 12;For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.  
----------------------
In other words, these gifts cease when "that which is perfect shall come" which you interpret as the completion of the canon of scripture.
The context of this Scripture clearly relates "that which is perfect" refers to the second coming of Christ. When Christ returns we will no longer need spiritual gifts because then, of course, we will be in completeness & will live in perfection. There is simply no scripture that clearly states the gifts of the Spirit would cease after the first century.

History repudiats the notion that the supernatural gifts ceased with the closing of the canon of Scripture at the end of the Apostolic age. Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Ambrose and others literaly mention the use of spiritual gifts like tongues and prophesy long after the first century. And of course the Reformers believed that the gifts of the Spirit were in perpetuity. Many great church leaders today still believe in the use of Spiritual gifts.

To claim that the use of Spiritual gifts have ceased is in my opinion, is to spit in the face of both historical and contemporary evidence.
Rom 11:29   For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
God has not changed his mind concerning Spiritual gifts We should all abide in Pauls instruction the "eagerly desire" spiritual gifts and to "not forbid speaking in tongues" (1 Cor 14:39--1 Tim 4:14)

Prophesy, tongues and healing are no different than teaching, mercy-showing and service. Just as the later gifts compliment the ministry of the Word, so should the former. They are not meant to compete with Scripture for the place of authority and guidance in our lives, but in Christ's body they each provide a speacial ministry of grace wich the believer needs to "grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ" (Eph. 4:15)
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« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2003, 08:14:23 PM »

The Holy Spirit gets alot of bad press. If you go to a "Holy Ghost meeting", the chances are the Holy Spirit is not going to be there. If you go to a Jesus meeting, the Holy Spirit will be there because the Holy Spirit does not draw attention to himself, but to Jesus.
 Alot of crazy things are done in the name of the Holy Spirit, but to go to the extreme to say that all the gifts have ceased, cannot be shown in scripture.

You say that  the "perfection" in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the completion of the Bible, and since we have the Bible today, the gifts have passed away.
The "perfection" in verse 10 refers to our perfection, not the completion of the Bible. The context itself clearly tells us this, as it talks about "we" and "I" knowing in part, then knowing fully, being a child, then growing into a man.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
11 When I was a child,...When I became a man,...
12 ...Now I know in part; then I shall know fully,...
If we say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible, then we are actually saying that the Bible  went through these human growth processes.

The passage clearly talks about us (not scrolls of scriptures) knowing partially then knowing fully, and that when the latter happens, the gifts of the Holy Spirit (that help build up and empower the church) will no longer be necessary and hence be done away with.
v12 "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face."
Again, to say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible is to also say that the Bible once saw a "poor reflection" of itself in the mirror, then saw "face to face" with someone once it was completed. This, of course, is silly.

We don't see the Lord "face to face" now. He is still at the  right hand of the Father, interceding for us, since His ascension. What we see is a "poor mirror reflection" of Him (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Because we are in Christ and Christ is in us by His Spirit, we reflect His image, though poorly, when we "look in a mirror".
Despite the dim reflection, the more we behold Jesus, that is, to learn more about Him, the more we are transformed from glory to glory into His likeness (2 Corinthians 3:18).

This transformation is still ongoing for every Christian, but it will be completed when we see Christ "face to face"  no longer as a poor reflection in a mirror (1 Corinthians 13:12).

When Christ comes back for His church, we would be perfected, complete knowledge with glorified bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 3:16,17, 2 Thessalonians 1:1).


Do you cessationists know it all? Has "know fully" or "perfection" happened to every Christian as cessationists believe? No. Just because we have the Bible, functions of evangelism, pastoring (shepherding), and teaching  carried out by men who "labor in the word and doctrine" does not mean that we now know perfectly.
Some cessationists then argue that we should not take "know fully" in absolute terms. They say that "know fully" just means knowing God's salvation plan.

Well, the qualification is in verse 12 ; "even as I am fully known". We are fully known by one person only- God. So, have we come to the place where we know fully to the same degree and standard that we are fully known by God?

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« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2003, 01:02:24 AM »

Iam going to do a research on the speaking of tongues,and i will report back with what i find.

Hi Jabaz,
You have rec'd some very good replies on your question concerning tongues.
I just wanted to add that a person who has this gift does have control over it and can speak in tongues at will. This is usually done at private prayer time.

Do your research from the Bible first.   Smiley

God bless,
bluelake



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« Reply #80 on: December 24, 2003, 03:53:28 PM »

Hi Phil!

I have the gift of a Prayer Language.

Love...Tamara.

Hello Tamara,
Your short message tells me that you understand this gift. It certainly seems to cause confusion.
I too have been blessed with prayer language. Those who are interested in a study on this issue may want to go to 1Cor.12 and 14.
Merry Christmas,
bluelake  Smiley






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The Crusader
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« Reply #81 on: December 26, 2003, 09:32:16 AM »

WHY...WHEN

TODAY WE DO NOT NEED THE GIFTS BECAUSE WE NO LONGER KNOW IN PART, WE HAVE THE COMPLETED WORD OF GOD, TO MAKE US PERFECT UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK

Grace & Peace

I agree with your study.

The Crusader
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« Reply #82 on: December 26, 2003, 10:39:58 AM »

Completed Word Of God means all of what the Bible teachs has come to pass.Is that true for you?
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« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2004, 05:23:38 AM »

Completed Word Of God means all of what the Bible teachs has come to pass.Is that true for you?

What?HuhHuhHuhHuh
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« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2004, 10:22:58 AM »

Iam going to do a research on the speaking of tongues,and i will report back with what i find.

Jabez:

Do not be misled by modern tongues -- which are glossolalia or babbling.  The tongues or more accurately languages which were spoken by the apostles were real human languages which they had never learned and could not have spoken without a miraculous ability to do so. Study Acts 2:1-13.  These are not modern babblings.

Also do not get wrapped up in the gift of tongues since Paul himself told the Corinthians to consider prophecy as a greater, better, and more edifying gift.  However, since we have a complete Bible, neither prophecy, nor tongues, nor supernatural knowledge are operative gifts.  Study 1 Cor. 12-14 carefully.
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« Reply #85 on: February 08, 2004, 03:11:40 PM »

Posted by: Sower  Posted on: February 02, 2004, 09:22:58 AM  
Quote from: Jabez on September 17, 2003, 09:22:23 AM
Iam going to do a research on the speaking of tongues,and i will report back with what i find.
 
 

Jabez:

Do not be misled by modern tongues -- which are glossolalia or babbling.  The tongues or more accurately languages which were spoken by the apostles were real human languages which they had never learned and could not have spoken without a miraculous ability to do so. Study Acts 2:1-13.  These are not modern babblings.

Also do not get wrapped up in the gift of tongues since Paul himself told the Corinthians to consider prophecy as a greater, better, and more edifying gift.  However, since we have a complete Bible, neither prophecy, nor tongues, nor supernatural knowledge are operative gifts.  Study 1 Cor. 12-14 carefully.  



Study 1 Cor. 12-14 carefully.  
Very good advice, let us do exactly that! There is a major
difference in the tongues that are a prayer language, given at
the time of the infilling of the Holy Ghost, and the tongues
that are one of the 9 gifts of the spirit listed in the 12'th
chapter of Cor.
Many people, and even more sadly, many people in the
christian community have failed to understand this difference.
There is a cost for the penticost expirience. That cost is a
willingness to totally and completely sell out to Jesus.
Let us begin our research in the book of Joel:
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
This began at the time of penticost:
Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Take care to note the words "as the Spirit gave them
utterance".  If we continue thru the book of acts there are
many more instances of the infilling of the Holy Ghost; and ;
in each case they began to speak with other tongues as the
spirit gave them utterance. .
Let us look as well in the 14'th chapter of Cor. and see what
else Paul had to say about tongues.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
We know as well that he said that he was no respecter of
persons: there is nothing given to any man, that he will not
give to any other person who is willing to pay the price of
total submission to the will of God.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
In the book of Hebrews we learn that he is Jesus Christ, the
same yesterday, today, and forevermore.
In the book of Isaiah he said he was the Lord God, I change
not! These are his promises to us. If he is the same, and
changes not, and if he is no respecter of persons: then show
me where the gifts of the spirit have ended, show me where
he decided to change his ways of perfecting the children of
God.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Many people use the above verse to say that the gifts of the
spirit are no longer active: let me ask this question in response

Are we perfect,? is the church perfect? have we manifested
ourselves as the sons of God? Have we done greater works
than our messiah? no? then surely the power of the spirit of
God is still active in those who will allow him to have total
control of their lives. There is a time that  they will be done
away with, and that is when the lamb of God returns as the
lion of the tribe  of Judea. When the King of Kings returns then
will that which is perfect be here! maranatha(come quickly).

Let me end with this statement from Paul-who by the way
came thirty years after the day of Penticost:
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Interesting don't you think!

Respectfully yours in Yeshua"
 Grin ravenloche  Grin
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if not here, where? if it is to be it is up to me!
John 3:17 for he came not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world thru him might be saved! Rom 8:1 there is therefore no con-
demnation to those who are in
christ Jesus...
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« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2004, 02:34:45 AM »

The scripture says we shall know even as we are known (1 Cor 13:12), and in Revelation 21, it says;

4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; .........

What is it which is perfect, which is to come, causing that which is in part to be done away with.  Verse 1 Cor 13:9-10.

The answer I am certain is found in verse 12 of;

1 Cor 13
12  For now we see hrough a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known.


The just shall live by faith, but somewhere in the future we will know assuredly, and see HIM with our own eyes, Job said;

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see, for myself; and mine eyes shall behold, and not another, though my reins be be consumed within me.
(Job 19:25-27)

I am sure, this is speaking of the perfecting of the faith we presently live by, which will turn to sight in that day at the resurrection of our glorified bodies.

How else, will we see the Lord face to face.

Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2004, 06:15:57 AM »

The GIFTS enumerated in EPHESIANS 4:7-16, and that these alone are necessary for the building up of the Body of Christ.  

Your friend and brother

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« Reply #88 on: February 17, 2004, 05:11:58 PM »

The GIFTS enumerated in EPHESIANS 4:7-16, and that these alone are necessary for the building up of the Body of Christ.  

Your friend and brother

The Crusader
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DITTO Grin
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« Reply #89 on: February 21, 2004, 11:39:59 AM »

A4C
TODAY WE DO NOT NEED THE GIFTS BECAUSE WE NO LONGER KNOW IN PART, WE HAVE THE COMPLETED WORD OF GOD, TO MAKE US PERFECT UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK

I dont agree with that..How do you reconcile this verse?

1 Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
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