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286818 Posts in 27568 Topics by 3790 Members
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46  Theology / General Theology / Re:Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation? on: January 08, 2004, 10:44:58 AM
Ok let me preface this by stating that I have gone back and read the entire posting again Michael.  And I have some comments concerning some things posted a while back.  And my reply is not complete at this time either.  I felt I should go ahead and post some now and then finish it up tonight or tomorrow.  I have also broken it down a little bit as well.   So anyway here we go.  Smiley

I.
Heb 6:4-6
A while back you had referenced these verses as a means to show how one could fall away.  You stated, "Here we have those clearly saved and yet fall away."  And Allinall was getting close in their reply but missed it by just a hair.
Now one thing that comes to mind when reading the whole of Hebrews is who this is written to and the underlying tone of the whole epistle.  The author is writing to Judiac converts, those that were once of the Jewish faith but have converted to Christianity.  So the Author goes to lengths to show how Jesus was greater than the phrophets, the Law, and more.
The Author starts to set the stage for our discussion in Heb 3:12 "Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the Living God."  A warning to be wary of those that could be professing the faith but actually not a true believer.  To be wary of someone who could be amongst them, or near them, that has fallen away from the Living God and failed to see the truth of the Christ.   Remember the Jews were "with" the Living God before the Messiah came, and those that did not accept Him when He came had fallen away from God.
The author moves on to explain they are partakers of Christ and that it was the Hebrews who provoked Him, and that it was the Hebrews whom angered God for 40 years.  Then the author states "And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but thos who were disobedient?  And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief."  This unbelief is talking of the Hebrews in not believing that Jesus was the Messiah they were waiting for.
When we move into chapter 4 we are again talking of the Hebrews and of "the rest" mentioned above.  In verse 6 the author states, "Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience."  Before Christ the Hebrews had the "good news" preached to them.  Even news of the coming Messiah, but hen do not enter because they do not believe.  Thus at that tim they too fell away from God.
When we move into chapter 6, which you discuss, we are again talking of the Hebrews who once had the Holy Spirit.  They once tasted the Heavenly gift, but failed to believe in the Messiah that God had sent.  Remember the Jews are still waiting for the first coming of the Messiah.  They are still waiting for the fulfillment of the Law.  And what would need to be done for that to happen?  "Crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put him to open shame."  Yep Jesus came and fulfilled the Law they had been looking for and in order for them to get what they are waiting for then Jesus would have to come again and be born again and crucified again.  Is that going to happen?  I dont think so Smiley
So with true reading and study of the verse you quoted in full context you can see that it is not referring to a "saved" Christian falling from God but the Jews who had fallen from God.

II
Eph 2:8-9
There was much banter and mention of these verses throughout the first part of this thread.  And when I got to Sowers comments on it...quite honestly he read a great deal more into it than is there. Smiley
But after that  you had made the comment "Ephesians isn't contrasting works and faith it is contrasting works and grace."  This is however not true.  These verses say a couple of things actually....and one of us protestants are going to have show you  Wink
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Now lets look into this sentence gramatically.  In essence what this sentence is stating is that we are saved by grace through faith and not as a result of works, so that none may boast.  We actually have two seperate related independant clauses here, as shown by the use of the semi-colons.  A semi-colon can be used to imply a because or other word that would allow the reader to actually be involved in the development of an idea.  So what we have is in the first part could read similar to this "For by grace (grace not of yourselves but as a gift from God) you have been saved."  We know that the second portion, in the semi-colons, is referring to grace by the structure of how it is worded.  We see that it is through grace we have been saved through faith.  So it is from someone else that we have this grace, and the second portion lets us know that the grace that has been given is not of our own but that of Gods.  
The last part of the sentence after the second semi-colon finishes up the thought of the first part before the first semi-colon. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."  
Those two verses show to us that salvation is achieved through faith alone and not of any consequences to actions taken to try and achieve salvation.  In other words Mother Theresa could help a billion people in her life and do deeds unfathomable by the rest of the masses but without faith she cannot be saved.

III
You had stated earlier:
Quote
But He is not in your heart unless you believe the right things, that implies understanding and that is only achieved through knowledge of the scriptures.  he who is ignorant of the Gospel is ignorant of Christ.
And all I can say to that the last line of that is completely false.  The Gentiles of the 1st century would have barely knows the Laws, let alone a scripture of the Gospels that had not even been written yet.  Paul is another example who did not come to know Jesus until a revelation.
One does not have to know the NT like the back of their hand to have belief in Jesus.  One does not even ever to have heard of the Bible in order to believe in Jesus.  A further understanding of the Gospel and the Bible comes after one has accepted the gift of Salvation.  I could go to up to someone in the most remote part of the world that has never heard of a Christian and tell him "Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior", and if that person truly believes that and accepts that then God will save that person.

There are a couple of others that I will be continuing a little later today or tomorrow.  But I did not want you to think I had forgotten about you Wink.  In my next post I will discuss James, Luke (you mentioned 22:31-32), John 17, Matt , and the rest of your verses and such.  It may take a post or two but I will get there Wink

But this should give you a little to chew on for a bit while I write up the information on the other stuff.  (yes I said write...I still use my trusty pencil/pen and paper first Smiley  )
47  Theology / General Theology / Re:John 9:1-3 on: January 03, 2004, 12:36:09 PM
Allinall stated it correctly.  The man was blind so that works of God could be made manifest in him (the blind man).

And then what happens?  Jesus cures the blind man and allows him to see....the works of God manifest in this blind man through Jesus
48  Theology / General Theology / Re:Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation? on: January 03, 2004, 12:25:12 PM
I am sorry to say that JudgeNot had it correct entirely.

Salvation is a gift freely given by God.  Once accepted it cannot be given back.  

Salvation:
Source:
Eph 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"
Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

So we see that salvation is a free gift given by the grace of God.

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"

Again reitterance that salvation is not only a free gift but it is eternal life.

Eph 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"

Here Paul states that once we have believed in the gosple of salvation we are sealed in God...sealed meaning to not be opened...thus we are not leaving.

It has also been quoted what Jesus had to say about being in the hands of God...and that no man (and we are mere men) can pluck us from Gods hands.

I am reminded of the parable of the house built on sand in which Jesus is warning of false prophets who come judgement day would say  "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" (Matt 7:22)  And Jesus replies (Matt 7:23) "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

Again obviously a statement that no matter how good the works are if there is not belief and faith in Jesus they do not get salvation.

It is teached throughout the Bible that we are saved through the grace of God.  That Salvation is a gift freely given upon the asking.  And it is also taught that we cannot lose our salvation.  What is also taught is that our rewards in heaven will be based upon our works.
Matt 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

We are taught that as children of God our works and deeds should be for His glory and not our own.  This is as Jesus had done and is told in John 10:25 "I told you, and ye believed not the works that I do in my Fathers name, they bear witness of me"
And the parables of how we, as followers of Christ, are to be a beacon of light on the hill for all to see.  The works we do should glorify God and our actions should show that we have faith in God.  And with faith good works shall follow.  However there is much more evidence in the Bible to suggest that once saved, always saved and that our salvation is sealed with God.  That does not mean that we cannot or will no longer sin, for we are men and Satan tempts us continually.  But as Jesus said himself we shall be rewarded in heaven based upon our works on earth.

49  Theology / Apologetics / Re:IS YOUR BIBLE THE RIGHT ONE? on: January 03, 2004, 10:52:14 AM
I must admit that I did not read every little reply to all of this....I got through to page 3 and then skipped to page 6 and finished it up....and it was not until Mick touched upon it.

Some thing here are this.  

The KJV is a very good translation.  One that was based upon manuscripts and such that were available at the time.  However since there there have been thousands of other manuscripts that have been found since.  Literally thousands and 10's of thousands.  Some of these newer translations also examine those and translate from them.  One reason you see new translations coming out is because in the past 100 years there has been a veritable boom in archaeology as to uncover many manuscripts and fragments.  The KJV may have been based on the oldest known manuscripts at the time...however with the finding of the DSS there are even older manuscripts of several of the books of the OT.

Now I am not knocking the KJV, and I use it.  I also use an NIV as well as NASB.

Mick has mentioned cross referencing.  And that is one of the keys I have found in my studies.  I use all three as well as Greens Literal and Youngs Literal in my studies.  I have found that no single Bible has all of the answers for me and I have usually gone back into study if there happened to be a verse in one version that I did not exactly understand.

And in my honest opinion I have found that the NASB does a very good job of bringing the message to modern English without loss of words or meaning.  And quite often during our Pastors Sunday school class or Sermon when he reads a verse and then states the meaning, usually by 'what so and so means there is...', I already have an understanding from reading my NASB.  I have found that pastors spend more time interpreting what the KJV means in modern English than what the author meant by the verse.

Now I also do not state that I am fearful of some of the versions coming out and put out already.  The 'politically correct' versions and such which attempt to change "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" with "Parent, Child, and Holy Ghost".  I would advise anyone who reads those to abandon that thought and stick with as close as possible to literal translations.  

In answer to the original question of the post.  I do not believe that any Bible is the "right" one, but that any Bible that allows a person to grow in Christ is the right one.  
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