I.
Heb 6:4-6
A while back you had referenced these verses as a means to show how one could fall away. You stated, "Here we have those clearly saved and yet fall away." And Allinall was getting close in their reply but missed it by just a hair.
Now one thing that comes to mind when reading the whole of Hebrews is who this is written to and the underlying tone of the whole epistle. The author is writing to Judiac converts, those that were once of the Jewish faith but have converted to Christianity. So the Author goes to lengths to show how Jesus was greater than the phrophets, the Law, and more.
The Author starts to set the stage for our discussion in Heb 3:12 "Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the Living God." A warning to be wary of those that could be professing the faith but actually not a true believer. To be wary of someone who could be amongst them, or near them, that has fallen away from the Living God and failed to see the truth of the Christ. Remember the Jews were "with" the Living God before the Messiah came, and those that did not accept Him when He came had fallen away from God.
The author moves on to explain they are partakers of Christ and that it was the Hebrews who provoked Him, and that it was the Hebrews whom angered God for 40 years. Then the author states "And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but thos who were disobedient? And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief." This unbelief is talking of the Hebrews in not believing that Jesus was the Messiah they were waiting for.
When we move into chapter 4 we are again talking of the Hebrews and of "the rest" mentioned above. In verse 6 the author states, "Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience." Before Christ the Hebrews had the "good news" preached to them. Even news of the coming Messiah, but hen do not enter because they do not believe. Thus at that tim they too fell away from God.
When we move into chapter 6, which you discuss, we are again talking of the Hebrews who once had the Holy Spirit. They once tasted the Heavenly gift, but failed to believe in the Messiah that God had sent. Remember the Jews are still waiting for the first coming of the Messiah. They are still waiting for the fulfillment of the Law. And what would need to be done for that to happen? "Crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put him to open shame." Yep Jesus came and fulfilled the Law they had been looking for and in order for them to get what they are waiting for then Jesus would have to come again and be born again and crucified again. Is that going to happen? I dont think so
So with true reading and study of the verse you quoted in full context you can see that it is not referring to a "saved" Christian falling from God but the Jews who had fallen from God.
II
Eph 2:8-9
There was much banter and mention of these verses throughout the first part of this thread. And when I got to Sowers comments on it...quite honestly he read a great deal more into it than is there.
But after that you had made the comment "Ephesians isn't contrasting works and faith it is contrasting works and grace." This is however not true. These verses say a couple of things actually....and one of us protestants are going to have show you
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Now lets look into this sentence gramatically. In essence what this sentence is stating is that we are saved by grace through faith and not as a result of works, so that none may boast. We actually have two seperate related independant clauses here, as shown by the use of the semi-colons. A semi-colon can be used to imply a because or other word that would allow the reader to actually be involved in the development of an idea. So what we have is in the first part could read similar to this "For by grace (grace not of yourselves but as a gift from God) you have been saved." We know that the second portion, in the semi-colons, is referring to grace by the structure of how it is worded. We see that it is through grace we have been saved through faith. So it is from someone else that we have this grace, and the second portion lets us know that the grace that has been given is not of our own but that of Gods.
The last part of the sentence after the second semi-colon finishes up the thought of the first part before the first semi-colon. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Those two verses show to us that salvation is achieved through faith alone and not of any consequences to actions taken to try and achieve salvation. In other words Mother Theresa could help a billion people in her life and do deeds unfathomable by the rest of the masses but without faith she cannot be saved.
III
You had stated earlier:
Quote
But He is not in your heart unless you believe the right things, that implies understanding and that is only achieved through knowledge of the scriptures. he who is ignorant of the Gospel is ignorant of Christ.
And all I can say to that the last line of that is completely false. The Gentiles of the 1st century would have barely knows the Laws, let alone a scripture of the Gospels that had not even been written yet. Paul is another example who did not come to know Jesus until a revelation.One does not have to know the NT like the back of their hand to have belief in Jesus. One does not even ever to have heard of the Bible in order to believe in Jesus. A further understanding of the Gospel and the Bible comes after one has accepted the gift of Salvation. I could go to up to someone in the most remote part of the world that has never heard of a Christian and tell him "Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior", and if that person truly believes that and accepts that then God will save that person.
There are a couple of others that I will be continuing a little later today or tomorrow. But I did not want you to think I had forgotten about you . In my next post I will discuss James, Luke (you mentioned 22:31-32), John 17, Matt , and the rest of your verses and such. It may take a post or two but I will get there
But this should give you a little to chew on for a bit while I write up the information on the other stuff. (yes I said write...I still use my trusty pencil/pen and paper first )