What do you think?

[Symphony]

I was just noting this earlier, under "Homosexual marriages; Prophecy...":


onestarfisher
Newbie

Posts: 4
    Re:Homosexual marriages
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2004, 11:13:33 PM »    

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I wanted your opinion on something (the Christians only, please!) I posted the following message the other day under Debate, but I think I should have put it here. I want to know what you think? (about what I did below) Is it right? Is it wrong? We're supposed to declare the truth, but how do you do that without "condemning?" And what is the difference between preacing righteousness, as they say Noah did, and exhorting against the evils of the day - and condemnation? I posted the suggestion below in another discussion board, and the homosexuals who wanted to cling to their sin jumped all over me....they clearly want to justify homosexuality, and they kept the few Christians in there busy.....what do you think?

"This is my first post. I have a suggestion. Especially now that the issue has really heated up in Massachusetts. I live in Arizona and this is what I have been doing the last few days….I took a white or light colored T shirt, old or new doesn’t matter, and some permanent makers. You can even buy markers for fabric at Walmart but any permanent will do. Put wax paper inside the shirt while you write.

On the front of the shirt, I printed in giant letters HOMOSEXUALITY  IS  A  SIN  Underneath that I put, Choose Life, Repent, Change and God Loves You in various places.
On the back of the shirt I wrote GAY ‘MARRIAGE’ WILL NEVER BE LEGAL IN GOD’S EYES  -  NEVER  EVER        WAKE  UP
I varied the sizes of the lettering for effect and  colored in some of the letters in the colors of the rainbow and drew a couple of those on there as well.

Then I wore my shirt to some busy places. and into busy stores (without a coat over it!) From people’s response so far, I would say it is a success. Jaws drop. Or people whisper – or ignore. I mean, isn’t it time we spoke up? I’m ready to discuss it with them, though, because I’m no better than they are. We are all sinners who need a savior.

I want to encourage you to go BE  SALT and light in the world. Don’t stay silent. Tell other people, especially people in Massachusetts. Post your successes stories…..

I want to encourage others to try this. There's really nothing store owners or anyone can do because it isn't a placard - it's a t shirt.
And, your topic could be anything, not necessarily this one."

I'm still rethinking it. I thought I would get into more conversations with people, but most people were shocked speechless and most averted their eyes. I saw mouths drop to knees. I don't know that I looked loving, although I was trying to. I have to admit, marching into the Starbucks in the heart of a town run by a gay mayor during the morning rush and only a couple of blocks from City Hall was exhilarating.

Also walked down the street facing traffic, because you can read the printing at least 20 to 40 feet away. After that, it was to the public library. Walked right past 2 cops inside, who never would have let me in with a sign that size. Then off to a busy restaurant where you have to walk around to get to the buffet. The a store with several homosexual employees - they were taking turns walking by to look at the front and back of the shirt. One of the guys asked me about it and I did get a chance to witness a little to him and give him a tract.

 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2004, 11:25:52 PM by onestarfisher »
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What do you think?


 

[Broken]

Not something that I would do.

Firstly because it would give offence, which we are not to do, scripture says.

And secondly because I support civil gay marriages anyway.

[Whitehorse]

Matthew 5

5:11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

5:12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

5:13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

I think our country has lost its saltiness, because the left's primary tactic in removing obstacles from is to shame others who don't agree with them, even though they are in the wrong. And I think we take our orders from God.

Broken, you make a good point about not wanting to offend, and in the right circumstances, this is often a good way to go. I guess what I would add is, that the truth offends. And we can't stop telling the truth to people because htey are offended, because then they cannot be saved. Even Jesus called the pharisees a brood of vipers. I'm not recommending we do that to gay people, because I think the right way to help them is to get to the root of the problem and deal with the deceptions and emotional scars that are causing them to have such an abhorrence for one of the most basic elements of their personal identity.

I agree with you that many times graciousness is the way to go. In the face of obstinance, however, I think onestarfisher's approach is often necessary.

[Symphony]

Yes, Jesus said, "...I came not to condemn the world..." (John 3:17)...


Thank you, Whitehorse...


Ahem, Broken.....  


What do you think about that, Broken--the persecution part, that Jesus' mentions there.  Is that being "paranoid"?


I think our country has lost its saltiness,   So well said.

[Broken]

Broken, you make a good point about not wanting to offend, and in the right circumstances, this is often a good way to go. I guess what I would add is, that the truth offends. And we can't stop telling the truth to people because htey are offended, because then they cannot be saved. Even Jesus called the pharisees a brood of vipers. I'm not recommending we do that to gay people, because I think the right way to help them is to get to the root of the problem and deal with the deceptions and emotional scars that are causing them to have such an abhorrence for one of the most basic elements of their personal identity.

What I was actually getting at, but didn't explain properly, is that we are not to offend the world. Those who are not Christian. If you look through Paul's letters, you see him often saying; be respectable, do not make the world think of you as either a threat or completely insane because that is cutting off your nose to spite your face. It means no one will listen to the message for looking at the incidentals - how you look and act. That is what rudeness does - people become so inflamed by how you act towards them that they wouldn't dream of having anything to do with anything about you. Totally counter-productive. Fred Phelps (of GodHatesFags fame) has made so many people think that all Christians are totally hateful, insensitive hypocrites - which is precisely why we are not to offend.
Of course some things will offend people - but there are ways and ways to say your message. Its the difference between having a T-shirt with "God hates you" on it, or, like someone I once knew, reciting lewd verses about homosexuality and saying something with kindness.

In reference to your point about basically hammering the point home with more offensive methods if people are "obstinate", I disagree with you. People have the right to be obstinate. If they do not want to accept their behaviour as sin the Bible says not to keep on and on banging on at them about it. It says to leave it be. You've told them, they won't listen - leave it. It does no good and will probably entrench people in their positions further.

Symphony,

What do you think about that, Broken--the persecution part, that Jesus' mentions there.  Is that being "paranoid"?

No, I don't think Jesus was paranoid. But then, Jesus was not a modern day American Christian    He was not perversely keen on the idea of martyrdom and persecution. He did not practically run around shouting "persecute me, persecute me!" getting some sort of kick or spiritual "reward" out of it. What he said was: you may be persecuted (MAY BE!) and if so, take heart. What he did not say was: seek out persecution, covet it, pleasure yourself in it, because it is good.

One is biblical, the other is perverse and smacks of masochism.

[Symphony]

[Whitehorse]

Well, if the world has the right to be obstinate, even more do we, for we have the truth; moreover, stakes are high. The stakes are the souls of those we are called to reach. Sure, God is sovereign and everything ultimately pans out the way He wants, but that does not lessen our responsibility. I'm just wondering why you would support gay marriage. The stakes for that are eternal, and it corrupts the entire nation. Just look at how it brought judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Broken]

Well, if the world has the right to be obstinate, even more do we, for we have the truth; moreover, stakes are high. The stakes are the souls of those we are called to reach. Sure, God is sovereign and everything ultimately pans out the way He wants, but that does not lessen our responsibility.

I'm not saying we should, in order to not give offence, give up our beliefs. Of course not! Just, there comes a point when you have to leave someone alone - shake the dust off your feet and leave them. Perhaps you planted a seed, perhaps not, but you told them, and they can reflect and make their own decision.

I'm just wondering why you would support gay marriage. The stakes for that are eternal, and it corrupts the entire nation. Just look at how it brought judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah.

I do not believe Christians have any business getting involved in political activism. We pray for our political leaders, we obey the laws of our countries - and thats it. We are not living in a theocracy nor should we wish to do so. Our form of political activism should be a passive one, from the ground up - from our lives and the way we live them rather than trying to regulate the lives of others.
The Bible does not tell us that we should force unbelievers to live the way we do.

Thinking in terms of the world, and NOT of how the church should behave in itself - I support gay marriages just because the state, mine and yours, claims to support equal rights for all. If it does that, it must include homosexuals, who are given equal rights in a number of things and that should be widened to include marriages. That is speaking secularly.

[JudgeNot]

PRAYER FOR MORAL COURAGE

 Lord God, I find myself surrounded by values that have no place in Your kingdom. That which is most sacred to You is trivialized and made common. Television, movies, newspapers, work associates, even neighborhood families accept as natural: sexual infidelities, drunkenness, drug use, violence, and pornography. I see these things so regularly that I find myself growing callous to what I used to find shocking. Part of me wants to follow Your teachings. Part of me wants to “fit in” and make friends easily.

Lord, help me to recognize right from wrong. Keep my heart tender that I might recoil from evil rather than adapt and make room in my life for what offends You. Give me discernment, Lord, in my everyday affairs so that when the big issues come, I will be prepared to do what is right. Lord, give me courage to say yes to good. Give me the strength to walk away from all that offends You. Help me, Jesus, to stay close to You even as I live each day in a world that sometimes professes allegiance to You but more often than not accepts compromises in following Your law. Through the gifts of Your Holy Spirit, may I find the graces I need to live in accordance with Your Divine Will and may these graces be given to all those I love. Thank you, Jesus. Amen

The above prayer is from a Catholic website.  I'm not Catholic - but it doesn't matter to me - loving Jesus, praying to Jesus, and having courage to do HIS will and ask for HIS guidance as we do it, should control our every decision.

I appreciate courage in HIM in the everyday decisions we make to spread the Word, as commanded by Him.  We can only spread His Word through boldness.

[Reba]

I forgot  i should not reply to baby killers

[Broken]

Entirely Old Testament.

God no longer requires us to set up a theocratic state.

"My Kingdom is NOT of this world".

[JudgeNot]

Entirely Old Testament.

God no longer requires us to set up a theocratic state.

But we should live (according to the NT) as if we are a member of a theocratic state.  (A state ruled by HIM.)

[Broken]

But we should live (according to the NT) as if we are a member of a theocratic state.  (A state ruled by HIM.)

We should live under the theocratic rule of God ("the Kingdom of God is within you"). We, not everyone else. Thats the point I was making

[Reba]

Symp,

 Some folks have an idea that God is loving like a big teddy bear all the time...  Setting back and doing nothing is not a good thing. I have watched and heard so called christians pander to wiht ever is going on  ...  after al we cant  witness is we are not door mats..


Matt 10:33-35... The words of the LORD

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
KJV
 

[Broken]

Denying God and not participating in worldly politics are two entirely different things.

We are not part of the world, but are citizens of heaven. We obey the earthly authorities - but our King is God.

I just don't see the justification for political activities in the New Testament. Not the campaigning against this law and that law - the Apostles never tried to change the secular laws, and neither did Jesus. They could have tried - they had influential people among the earliest Christians, Caesar's household for one. Yet they did not.

Thats really my point.