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286811 Posts in 27568 Topics by 3790 Members
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1  Theology / Apologetics / Genealogy of Jesus on: May 24, 2003, 09:17:21 PM
Shalom! I do have another question that I've had for some time about the lineage of Jesus. If any of you could help shed some light on it for me, I would appreciate it!

"And not to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies that promote speculations rather than the divine training that is known by faith."
1 Timothy 1:4 (NRS)

Most Christians are not learned in Jewish law, (no offense), and are thus unaware of the triune (pardon the expression) nature of the genealogical problem associated with claiming Jesus as the Messiah. However, since the Christian claim is that Jesus is the JEWISH Messiah, then we must put the case under JEWISH scrutiny, and see if it fits under JEWISH law. The following is an examination of the genealogy of the man whom Christians call Lord and Savior.

Messiah is an anglicized version of the Hebrew word "Moshiach," which means "anointed." We call the future king the Messiah because all kings are anointed.

One of the simplest requirements for being the Messiah is the lineage. In the Jewish scriptures we see prophecies of a king from David's line sitting on the throne of Israel once more:

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the LORD their G-d, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. (KJV)
David had been given an oath from the Almighty that the throne of Israel would always belong to his line, which we find in the Jewish Bible repeatedly:

Jeremiah 33:17 For thus said HASHEM: There shall not be cut off from David a man who sits on the throne of the House of Israel. [18] And for the Kohanim, the Levites, there will never be cut off a man from before Me who offers elevation-offerings and burns meal-offerings and performs feast-offerings all the days. [19] The word of HASHEM came to Jeremiah, saying: [20] Thus said HASHEM: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that day and night would not come in their proper times, [21] so too could My covenant be annulled with David, My servant, so that he would not have a descendant reigning on his throne, or [My covenant] with the Levites and the Kohanim, My attendants. (Artscroll)

Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. [35] Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. [36] His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. [37] It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. (KJV)
So, from here we see that G-d took an oath that the throne would always belong to David and his descendants. However, the oath was supplemented by another pledge:

1 Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. [10] He shall build a house for my name; and he shall be My son, and I [will be] his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. (KJV)
So we see, any man who would sit on the throne must not only be a descendant of King David, but specifically a descendant of David’s son, Solomon. This requirement was made even more stringent in the days prior to the Babylonian exile. Jeconiah, King of Judah, was a wicked king, and his actions pushed G-d too far. G-d punished Jeconiah, also known as Jehoiachin or Coniah:

Jeremiah 22:24 [As] I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence; [25] And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand [of them] whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans. [26] And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die. [27] But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return. [28] [Is] this man Coniah a despised broken idol? [is he] a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure? Wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not? [29] O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD. [30] Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. (KJV)
This devastating curse effectively removes all descendants of Jeconiah from the royal line. So from the verses listed above we see that anyone who would sit as king must be descended from King Solomon but not descended from King Jeconiah. We see that this curse is binding, because after Jeconiah was deposed, instead of the throne being handed to his son, it passed to Zedekiah, his uncle. No descendant of Jeconiah ever held the throne, or ever can hold the throne. His grandson, Zerubbabel, held power granted by G-d, but was never king.

The New Testament makes the messianic claim for Jesus, and as such, the New Testament gives a detailed genealogy in the first chapter of the very first book, the Gospel of Matthew:

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. [2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; [3] And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; [4] And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; [5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias; [7] And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; [8] And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; [9] And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; [10] And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; [11] And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: (KJV)
Matthew defeated his own purpose by including Jeconiah (spelled Jechonias by the KJV) in his listing. Further complicating this matter is the virgin birth, which is claimed by Matthew 1:18-23. Because the virgin birth is substantiated by a misused excerpt of Isaiah, there is no reason to believe that it was actually prophesied, and even less to believe it to be true. Furthermore, it defeats the claim that Jesus is the Messiah. In Jewish law, genealogy is traced specifically through the father, not the mother.

Numbers 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of [their] names, every male by their polls; (KJV)

Numbers 1:18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first [day] of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls. (KJV)
With genealogies in the Bible, we see person A, son of person B, son of person C, etc. This is because Jewish descent is traced through our fathers. If a Levitical priest married a woman from the tribe of Judah, their children would be of the tribe of Levi.

Not having a human father prevents anyone from claiming the throne. This is the issue I'm having. I have tremendous interest in Christianity, but I need to have these questions ironed-out. Any feedback is appreciated!

Be Well,
Daniel Wink
2  Theology / Apologetics / Atonement on: May 24, 2003, 08:53:58 PM
Shalom! My name is Daniel, and I have a question I would like to respectfully put to the group here. I would like to know why you believe that Jesus qualifies as the final sacrifice for the atonement of sins.
  To answer this question, please reference the "Old Testament," (it grieves me to write that), and specifically, please use the Torah. We all would agree that that's where
G-d gave us very specific information on how to offer a sacrifice, (if it wasn't done exactlyas G-d told Moshe, blessed be he, then it was an abomination and would not be accepted. It is also there, (Leviticus), that we are told when (and when not) to make a sacrifice, under what circumstances, by whom, and a million other how's, when's and why's. Please don't follow 'the norm' and quote for me Lev.17:11. I'll tell you why:
  The common Biblical reference cited in support of the claim that the shedding of blood is a necessary condition for the atonement of sins is the following portion of a verse:

Leviticus 17:11(KJV) - "…for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

The apparent message contained in this portion of the verse is echoed on a number of occasions in the New Testament.  Consequently, a superficial reading of the verse in Leviticus, without looking at the entire passage and placing it in its proper context, will almost certainly lead one to conclude that only by being covered by the blood of Jesus on the cross can one have any hope of being forgiven for his or her sins.

This verse is part of a passage that ostensibly deals with the prohibition on the consumption of blood.  When this verse is considered in its entirety, it becomes evident that a specific statement concerning blood is conveyed.  Namely, that the blood of the sacrifice must be placed "… upon the altar to atone for your souls; …", i.e., that the only way blood can bring atonement is if placed on the sacrificial altar in the Temple - this is a necessary condition, a requirement.  The pertinent question here is:  "Was the blood of Jesus sprinkled on the altar as specified in Leviticus 17:11?"

I'll stop here for now and wait to see some of the responses you come back with. I offer this question in good faith, with much respect, as I am a guest on your site. Remember, as it is written, "iron sharpens iron."

Be Well,
Daniel Wink
 
3  Theology / Apologetics / Re:Christ died on Thursday and rose on Sunday on: May 24, 2003, 07:31:08 PM
You are absolutely correct. It was a Wednesday crucifixion.




I agree, “Interesting!”

Nevertheless, when did the women have a chance to buy (Mark 16:1) and prepare (Luke 23:56) the spices to anoint the body of Christ?

If you have back to back Sabbaths for the Passover (the Holy Day on Nisan 15, and the weekly Sabbath), the places of business would be closed.

I have to go with a Wednesday crucifixion!

God bless,

John1one

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