My Friends,

The Apostle Paul clearly was telling the Thessalonians NOT to expect Christ to come any day. How much clearer can it be? I understand the scriptures about the church age, and your point of view, but we MUST palce those verses with all the other verses to conclude anything. "Precept must be upon precept, line upon line, here a verse, and there a verse." Read Isaiah 28:9-13 on proper dividing the Word of God. I respect your efforts, but you are totally not listening to Paul.

The score is not you against me, or me against you, but Scripture vs tradition.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul says with “the trump of God,” and also clarifies which trumpet it is, as we will see. The dead in Christ will rise first, then all believers alive on earth, will be caught up in the clouds with the Lord. This is Christ’s secret appearing as some call it. This is when Christ comes for His saints, and 3½ years later Christ will come with His saints! We should clearly see by now, the difference.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

We will return WITH Jesus at His second coming, clothed in fine linen, clean and white. As we discussed preciously, those in white are the saints that came out of tribulation. The Apostle Paul mentioned in I Thessalonians 5:2, that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. Some use this as a presumption, claiming for this to be valid; that the Lord can appear at any moment. However, as we are beginning to see, and have learned prior, that we must take this verse and combine it with dozens of other verses, to conclude that. We believe the Thessalonian Church may have believed this, and when Paul wrote them back in II Thessalonians, he clarified the mis-conception. When Paul wrote them back, he revealed to them that certain things must happen first, BEFORE the Rapture, as we will show. Let’s look at II Thessalonians 2:1-3 and dissect each verse for clarity.

 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

It’s very clear here, that Paul starts out by talking about the Rapture, the coming of the Lord, when we are gathered together in the clouds to meet him.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He goes on to say, not to be shaken, troubled, or confused thinking the day of Christ is at hand. Evidently there was word of an imminent return of Christ, either by his previous letter, or by others.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul says not to let anyone deceive you or tell you otherwise, because the Rapture cannot take place until there is a falling away first, AND, the man of sin be revealed. The keyword here is REVEALED! Revealed means “to make known,” or to “unveil;” “to make known something previously concealed or secret.” Scripture teaches us that the first 3½ years of the tribulation the Antichrist’s true identity will be hidden and kept unveiled. Although many believers will discern him, and know who he is, the prophetic unveiling, will not occur until the middle of the seven-year period. In the “midst” or the middle of the seven-year tribulation, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and show his true colors. This is when he is revealed. The Rapture cannot take place until this unveiling takes place, as Paul clarifies. To say the Antichrist is revealed, or unveiled at the beginning of the seven-year period, is not according to the Biblical unveiling as Paul continues to say.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul reveals to us the timing of the revealing! The Antichrist is “revealed” once he sets himself up as God, showing himself to be God. Daniel 9:27 is a little more specific about the true timing of this event.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

As we all may or may not know, the prophetic week of Daniel is the seven-year tribulation period, and in the “midst” or middle of this period, this is the timing of the unveiling of this man of sin. Once this occurs, the Rapture may take place. So we can clearly see the Church is going at least 3½ years into the seven-year period. The Antichrist will stop all temple sacrifices, and actually set himself up in the Jewish Temple and claim to be God. Once this occurs, as another evidence that it’s in the middle of the seven-year period, Daniel 12:11 reveals more specifics about timing.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel says once the Antichrist is revealed, there will be 3½ years left. Excellent clarity and understand is shown, by using scripture upon scripture to “reveal” to us the timing of the Rapture. Daniel 12:11 also shows us that the “revealing” has to be in the middle of the seven-year tribulation, for 1290 days will be left in time. This is clearly the last 3½ years. Now with Paul telling us the Rapture cannot take place “UNTIL” the Antichrist is “Revealed,” it’s obvious, that the Church, and the Rapture is mid-tribulation. Now let’s continue with Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Many claim that the “he” mentioned in verse 7 is the Church, and that once the Church is raptured, then the Antichrist will be revealed. But does this line up with Daniel 9:27 and the letter to the Thessalonians we just discussed? We will let you decide. Even if this was the Church, and we are to agree with this argument, the fact that the Antichrist is not “revealed” until the middle of the seven-year period, still leaves the Church well into the tribulation. So this is a weak argument, which contradicts itself. Paul was not saying two different things in verses 3 and 8. In verse 3, Paul says the man of sin must be revealed first, then the Rapture can come. But many who hold to a pre-tribulation view, claim that verses 7-8 is the Church being raptured, and when the “HE” is removed, the man of sin will then be revealed. This is a contradiction, and thus the “HE” cannot be the Church.  Also, as we previously discussed, the Church is generally referred to as a “she,” rather than a “he.” The “He” could just be God Himself, or His Angels, and He will remove His restraining power when He wishes. Regardless of who the “HE” is, we cannot ignore the fact that the Antichrist’s revealing is in the middle of the seven-year period. You see now, why PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT? Many scriptures thus far have been shown as evidence that the Church will be raptured well into the tribulation, without yet truly revealing the most striking evidence for such a case.

Dear Friends,

Don't despair. God will be with us during the first 3 1/2 yrs of the tribulation according to the following prophecy.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Deuteronomy 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Clearly a prophetic Word for our comfort! God assures us when we are in the tribulation, “even in the latter days,” that He will be with us and never forsake us. As the song goes, “there is peace in the midst of the storm.”

Score:

Bible Evidence    47
Pre-Trb theory    0

Yours,

Michael

For those who got on Chad for His earthquake prophecy, you might be instrested to know the pre-tribulation rapture comes from a prophecy of a 15 yr old catholic girl in Scotland in 1830.
She had a vision of the Curch being raptured before the tribulation, and it's proven documented fact, that this is the true origin of a pre-trib theory.

So before you jump on Chad for his earthquake prophecy, you might consider your pre-trib beliefs comes from a false prophecy also. How ironic indeed.

Yours,

Michael

Listen to pre-trib teacher Hilton Sutton as follows,

His book called the "Rapture" was an argument for a pre-tribulation Rapture, and in his book, he made the following statement, to our surprise.

“If you search for a single verse of scripture which states specifically that the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ and the catching up of the Church is prior to the tribulation, your search will be in vain. There is no such verse. But by studying the whole of God’s Word, you will discover that the rapture is a certainty, and it very definitely comes before the tribulation period.”

If we study the whole of God’s Word, and cannot find one verse to support a pre-tribulation rapture, how can a conclusion be made for one? What are we going to do with the hundreds of scriptures that do show us going onto the tribulation? Should not we allow the scriptures to persuade our own pre-suppositions? We must hold to Bible evidence, and weigh the pre-tribulation Rapture on the scales of God’s Word. We believe once it is weighed, the pre-tribulation Rapture, will be found wanting.

Once we believe and understand the Church is going into half of the tribulation period, suddenly we identify ourselves with being there, and realize we will be a part of God’s end-time restoration. Things become more real, and the prophecies in Revelation and Daniel come alive. We will be part of the most exciting time the Church has ever seen. No matter what we face, His grace will be sufficient, and we will still have the blessed hope to comfort each other with. God will never give us more than we can bear, He will provide and deliver us, when the time is right. Jesus said, “FEAR NOT,” for I will be with you till the end of time.

Bible Evidence vs Tradition

Yours,

Michael

Paul and Early,

With respect, I know your trying to justfy a pre-trib Rapture, and I respect your efforts.

But we cannot escpae the fact that Paul says it occurs at "the last trump." (I Corinthians 15:52.) This trump occurs in Rev 11:15 and if you read Rev 10:7, the "Mystey" of Christ and the Church is finished.

If you study the history of a pre-trib rapture, you'll be shocked.

In 1830, a fifteen-year Catholic old girl, named Margaret Macdonald, had a dream of the Church being taken out of the world before the tribulation. She lived in Port Glashow, Scotland. Her dream was written down on paper, and soon spread in the community. In 1831 a Presbyterian minister, named Edward Irving, had picked up on the view, and began teaching the Church was to be raptured before the tribulation. This view began to gain popularity. Mr. Irving was actually kicked out of his denomination for this teaching, and later started what is today known as “The Catholic Apostolic Church.”

As the view gained popularity, another man named John Darby, of the Plymouth Brethren, began this teaching and it spread even to a further degree. Now Mr. Darby had a follower named Cyrus Scofield, who is the main influence for the pre-tribulation view to enter the United States. In 1909 Scofield included, the pre-tribulation view in his reference Bible. As a result, many denominations in the United States began teaching a pre-tribulation Rapture.

Mr. MacPherson’s book created such a stir, as to the origin, that many ministers wrote him, and declared their surprise as to the true origins. One seminary president wrote him as follows, “It really is a most interesting historical fact to observe that the pre-tribulation rapture originated in this astonishing way.” (Dave MacPhearson’s “The Incredible Cover-Up” pp 93-94, Omega Publications)

An Oregon Bible teacher wrote Mr. MacPhearson, as follows, “You will be interested to know that many years ago I had dinner in Seattle with a then middle-aged couple who were members of the Catholic Apostolic Church (Irvingite sect). At the time I believed in pre-trism and told them so. They asked me where I got the doctrine. I told them ‘from the Bible’. They said, ‘No you didn’t’ and went on to tell me how it was not in the Bible but revealed to their church through one of their prophetesses around the middle of the 19th century.” (Dave MacPhearson’s “The Incredible Cover-Up”, pp 93-94, Omega Publications).

This does raise an eyebrow or two as to the originating source of the pre-trib view.

With all that said, the only traditional Church teaching we should hold to, is that which is contained in scripture.

Please, let "God be true, and every man a liar." Romans 3:4

Yours,

Michael

Paul,

Revelation 4:1 has nothing to do with the Rapture, the Angel was talking to John. Revelation 4:2 John says, ....I was in the spirit..." Paul, who taught you that was the Rapture? That's a real stretch of scripture. Remember---"at the last trump"

Bronze,

John Chapter 2 has nothing to do with the Rapture. An even further stretch.

STILL, not one verse of scriptural evidence to show a pre-trib Rapture.

Score is:

Bible Evidence  40
Pre-trib theory   0

Yours,

Michael

Still the challenge has not yet been met. Not one verse of scripture to say we will be delivered from the entire tribulation period, yet about 30 verses of evidence to show contrary.

The score is

Bible Evidence     30
Pre-Trib Theory     0

Yours,

Michael

Once again in response to Bronzsnake, and other comments about God not appointing us to wrath.

Read he previous posts, God's wrath does not even begin till Rev 16:1.

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

God’s judgments are revealed at this point, but notice the next verse, which starts out by saying, “and after that.”
Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Revelation 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Once God’s judgments are poured out, “after that” He begins to pour out His wrath, of which we are assured deliverance from. The actual beginning of God’s wrath is in Revelation 16:1 as follows.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Hopefully now we understand the difference between the judgments of God and the wrath of God. With this clarity we can understand prophecy better, and the timing of the Rapture becomes more vivid. Another scripture that seems to indicate deliverance from tribulation is in Luke 21:36.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Jesus said, pray to be accounted worthy to “escape all these things.” Some note that because He said “all these things” that this is a verse of proof that we will escape the entire tribulation period. However, with that said, and all the evidence from scripture prior, we will leave you to decide. Jesus does mention in Luke 21:23 that there will be “wrath” upon this people. Luke 21:1-22 mentions many of God’s judgments, and in verse
23 the tone changes to God’s wrath. We believe that according to all the other verses of scripture, that Jesus was only referring to deliverance from “all of God’s wrath.” Luke 21:23-28 is very similar to the verses in Revelation 6:12-18 which takes a parenthetical view and jumps out of perfect sequence. Revelation 6:16 calls it the “wrath of the Lamb.” Another common case for a pre-tribulation Rapture is found in Revelation 3:10.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Once, again, if we place all the other scriptures together with these promises of deliverance from wrath, temptation, and “all these things;” we can only conclude God promises deliverance from the last 3½ years of the tribulation. Jesus said He would “keep us” from the hour, not take us away from it. The Greek word for “keep” here is “tereo,” taken from “teros,” which means “a watch, to guard from loss or injury, by keeping the eye upon.” God does not promise anywhere to totally deliver us from temptation, but to provide a way where we can endure it, and go through it!

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

So when Jesus is telling us to pray that we may be able to “escape all these things,” He’s referring to the same escape as I Corinthians 10:13 is, meaning an “escape,” that we may be able to bear with. God will “keep” us “with the temptation,” not take us out of the world, so that we don’t have to face it.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

So please, I agree, God has not appointd us to wrath, but that leaves us in His judgments the first 3 1/2 yrs.

Yours,

Michael

To answer Old Timer's comments,

OK, let’s take a specific look at the Church of Jesus Christ in the tribulation period. Let’s go to the books of Revelation and Daniel and behold the saints (church folk) right in the midst of it all. Old Timer argues that the Church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter four, and thus we will not be here. If we don’t take all scripture relating to any subject, we will not understand! Brother, we cannot just take a few verses and come to a conclusion. You will see, that the Church is mentioned in Revelation, and displayed frequently throughout the book. We know that saints come from the Church as Paul said. ( I Corinthians 1:1-2.) Just because the word “Church” is not mentioned does not mean the Church will not be there. God is not even mentioned in the books of Esther and Song of Solomon. Does that mean God is not there, or in action in those books? Of coarse not. The Church is not mentioned as “the Church” in the books of Titus, II Timothy, II Peter, I John, II John, and Jude, but we know it’s written to the Church. So to say the Church is not mentioned after revelation chapter four, is a very weak argument. Besides, the Church IS spoken of after chapter four.

Another argument is in Revelation 4:1 where the angel says to John, “Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must be hereafter,” claiming this is the Rapture. This also is a very weak argument, for clearly the angel was talking specifically to John, not to the entire Church, which Jesus Himself applies to the book of Revelation.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Israel is mentioned in the entire Bible 2301 times, and only 3 of those references are in the book of Revelation. Revelation 2:14 mentions Balaam, who taught Balac how to cause Israel to stumble. In Revelation 7:4, the 144,000 Jews are saved, and in Revelation 21:12, it’s referring to the names of the twelve tribes of Israel in heaven. Nowhere else in the book of Revelation is Israel referred to. The Jews are mentioned 244 times in the entire Bible and only mentioned twice in Revelation. The two references in chapters 2 and 3, Christ was referring to false Jews. Nowhere else in Revelation are the Jews referred to. However with that said, look at some of the following references in the book of Revelation.

1)   The Saints            13 times
2)   The Church             7 times
3)   The Churches        12 times
4)   The Brethren          4 times
5)   Servants              10 times
6)   The Bride               4 times
7)   The Lambs Wife       2 times
   Those in White Robes   4 times
9)   Those in White Linen    2 times
10)   Everlasting Gospel      1 time
11)   Prophets                  8 times
12)   Jesus                     12 times
13)   The Lamb of God       27 times

Compare these references to the fact that the Jews and the Nation of Israel are not specifically referred to one time in Revelation. Also mark the words of Jesus in Revelation 22:16; “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.” Still think the Church is not mentioned or somehow involved in the book of Revelation? According to these references, it sure looks like a lot of saints from the Church will be around, along with the two prophets of Revelation 11:3-13. And so will the Everlasting Gospel with God’s end-time message, which must also first be preached.

So brother, to say the Church is not mentioned after Revelation Chapter 4, is not what he Bible shows.

Be open my friend, the overwhelming scriptural evidence points to the mid-trib rapture.

Yours,

Michael

In responce to Wren's comments,

What Thomas Edison said is irrevelent on this topic. What the Word of God says is.

Without knowledge of God's Word, guess 1/10 of 1% knowledge would be about right.

Yours,

Michael

STILL---not one verse of scripture for a pre-trib rapture. The challenge still stands.

In response to Paul2' comments,

Paul, yes the two prophets of Rvelation 11:3-13 will preach the first 3 1/2 yrs of the tribulation and be raptured in chapter 11, along with the Church, for that's the same chapter as the "last trump" of I Cor 15:51 which occurs in Revelation 11:15.

Notice also in Rev 10:7, that THEN, the mystery of God is finished, the Church age will be over, an only then is the Church gone, not before the "last trump." Paul says in Ephesians, "I show you a mystery...I speak concerning Christ and the Church." Rev 10:7 uses  the same word relating to last trump, MYSTERY. So the "mystery" is revealed about the Rapture, as God shows and declares to His servants the prophets. Rev 10:7

We must go by what te Apostle Paul said, not what we have been previously "taught."

We will always be looking for the coming of our Lord, just as the early Church was, but Paul clarified certain things MUST come first, before the day of Christ when we are taken up with Him. A falling away, and the man of sin be revealed, which has not happened yet.

Thus the Rapture cannot be tonight, tommrrow, next year, or the year after. Only 3 1/2 yrs after the triblation begins, can we expect His return. Either way, we are still looking and awaiting His coming. Just because John says, "Lord come" and Jesus says "I come quickly," does not mean He's coming or could come tonight. 2000 years is hardly "quickly." The scriptures that say we ae looking and waiting for our Lord's return is not evidence He can come tonight, especially if we takes these scriptures and line them up with the dozens of other verses, that says WHEN He will come such as "last trump" and seeing the saints, churches, bride, and those in white in the book of Revelation. Revelation is for the "churches" Jesus said in Rev 22:16.

Titus 2:13 does say we are "looking for His Coming." Many scriptures do. But an immeniant return at any moment is not what Paul taught, nor anyone else. Read II Thess 2:1-4. I might be "looking for a wife" or"looking to be rich" but that does not mean I might be rich tonight. Thus, still no evidence Paul, for a pre-tribulation rapture. That' why I preented the challenge for one verse to prove a pre-trib rapture, because there is none. But there are hundreds of verses to prove the Chruch will be in tribulation in the end-time.

Also Acts 3:19-21 says Jesus cannot return "UNTIL" resitition and Restoration comes first, along with dozens of other prophecies, like the latter rain, the spirit of Elijah, the "last trump" of the seven trumpets, and more.


Yours,

Michael

Still not one verse of scripture to say Jesus can come tonight.

False teachings? PROVE IT!

Michael

Old Timer,

Request  FREE copy of the my book, and I'll send it.

Request it at kjvbiblejax@aol.com

Yours,

Michael

A final note about the Last Trump.

Are you ready for the final revelation of the timing of the Rapture? Well, it’s so simple and revealed in scripture, that it does not take a rocket scientist to accept this simple truth. The Apostle Paul tells us in scripture, that the Rapture will occur, “at the last trump.”

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This almost seems too simple, and it is! The Rapture will occur “at the last trump,” which is the last trumpet out of the seven, in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15. Now I’ve heard some ask the question, how do we know this last trumpet, is the last trumpet of Revelation chapter 11? We will explain and show exactly from scripture what Paul was referring to by the “last trump.” The word “last” is obviously the last in sequence. If you have 7 people in a straight line, and ask the last person to come forward, which one of the seven will it be? Of coarse the 7th person in line will come forward. Just as there are seven trumpets in the book of Revelation, the last trump, will be the 7th. This is the only sequence of trumpets in the entire Bible, so as not to confuse any other trumpets. Some have even said that this “last trump,” could not be the same trumpet in Revelation that Paul is referring to, because, quote, “That is not Paul’s last trump, because that’s an angelic trump, not the trump of God.” Whether God Himself blows the trumpet, or an Angel, it’s still the “last trump.” That’s reasoning, rather than Biblical interpretation, using precept upon precept. The sequence of trumpets starts in revelation 8:7 and concludes in Revelation 11:15. Just because it’s so simple to understand and so plainly laid out by Paul, does not mean it’s not a reality, or a fact.

Some mistake the last trump to be the same trumpet blown at the actually second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:31. But if this were the case, we would have already been raptured, because Matthew 24:29-31 is clearly referring to the literal second coming of Christ WITH HIS SAINTS, not for them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This trump of God, is the last trump of I Corinthians 15:52, and not to be confused with the “great sound of a trumpet” in Matthew 24:29-31, when Jesus comes back to earth near the time of Armageddon. The “last trump” will sound 3½ years prior to the “great sound of a trumpet” when Jesus comes back with His saints.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I reply to Old-Timr's comments and Plgrim,

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

To this we say Amen! God surly has not appointed us to wrath, and does promise us deliverance from it. The simple truth of the matter is, in which many fail to recognize, is that God’s wrath does not even begin until the last 3½ years of the tribulation! The first 3½ years are God’s judgments and the last 3½ years will be His wrath. He only promises us deliverance from the second half. So where is the Church before God’s wrath? It’s in the first 3½ years of God’s judgments. Thankfully we are delivered from His wrath and will not have to endure the latter part of the tribulation, for we will have been taken away by this time. This verse does annul a post-tribulation theory, for some do believe we will endure the entire seven-year tribulation. But thank God we will be delivered from His wrath, so assuredly we can “comfort one another with these words” (I Thessalonians 4:18).

Pilgrim---Te Antichrist is rvelaed in the "midst" or middle of the seven year trib period. Read Daniel 9:27 and II Thess 2:4.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul says not to let anyone deceive you or tell you otherwise, because the Rapture cannot take place until there is a falling away first, AND, the man of sin be revealed. The keyword here is REVEALED! Revealed means “to make known,” or to “unveil;” “to make known something previously concealed or secret.” Scripture teaches us that the first 3½ years of the tribulation the Antichrist’s true identity will be hidden and kept unveiled. Although many believers will discern him, and know who he is, the prophetic unveiling, will not occur until the middle of the seven-year period. In the “midst” or the middle of the seven-year tribulation, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and show his true colors. This is when he is revealed. The Rapture cannot take place until this unveiling takes place, as Paul clarifies. To say the Antichrist is revealed, or unveiled at the beginning of the seven-year period, is not according to the Biblical unveiling as Paul continues to say.