ChristiansUnite Forums

I stumbled on this “Progressive Christian” site.  Their name - Christian Alliance certainly sounds nice.
In my opinion, they wrongly invoke Christ's name in an attempt to justify sins of baby killing and sodomy.  I'd like the board's take on it...

You may want to take a “chill pill” (say a prayer) before exploring the site; I don’t want anyone with high blood pressure blowing a gasket…

Of course – I’m also aware there are people here at CU who may actually agree with the “progressive Christian” ideology.  

http://www.christianalliance.org (http://www.christianalliance.org)

!!!!!!!!!!ARRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hilary must be behind it.

Well it didn't raise my blood pressure .... but maybe thats because I took a double dose of blood pressure medication. :D :D

Seriously (and this is a very serious subject) I found lies all throughout the web site. Some of it is just misguided people but there were also outright bold lies.

I couldn't help myself - I posted to their message board a warning about twisting scripture to encourage sinful lifestyles, and how leading others down the path to hell might not be the best idea...

OK guys, someone is going to hit me on the head but here goes.

I believe homosexuality is a sin as most all of us here on CU believe but...............................yep, but sin is sin.  Do other sinners have a finger pointed at them the way homosexuals do?  That answer is no, they don't.  Adultery used to be a punishable crime in the U.S.  Now, fornication and adultery have shoulders shrugged at them.  It's almost a given that people fornicate and married people cheat on a spouse.  This is a very confusing world and a wicked one in my estimation.  

Reference the eroding of family values.................let's just suppose that laws are passed allowing legal civil unions.  Do we think that more people will "come out" and "get married"?  What would the long term implications be?  This brings to mind what the Apostle Paul said about all things being lawful but not all things are expedient.  It's sort of the practicality of it versus morality of it.  If we are to love the sinner but hate the sin, then why aren't we talking about all sin the way we talk about homosexuality.  We don't, simply because other sinners aren't wearing a banner to proclaim their sin.

Regardless, I still believe that it's a sin but I do not know how to help these people.  Some say it can be reversed and some say it can't be.  What I don't understand is why they can't lead a celibate life.  It's not unheard of, you know.

Do eunuchs fit in with the above at all?  I don't know the answer to this question that's why I asked for an opinion.

Personally, I'm sick and tired of everything evil that's going on in this world.  I would hope that Jesus is too, and that He's coming back real soon.

JN, that was just the point they were making.  They don't think they're twisting scripture.  They think we are.  All of this brings to mind what Jesus said about others who were preaching or casting out in His name.  Didn't He say to leave them alone because He had other sheep who were not "of this flock".  I'm not sure I'm taking out of context what Jesus meant when He said this.  I'm sure someone else will think so, though.

I'm really afraid of being too self presumptous.  I believe in standing firm on the Word of God but the problem arises in the interpretation of that Word.  Each denomination thinks they have the correct one.  Somebody is very definitely wrong.

 

You are right, cris - sin is sin is sin is sin.  I sin, you sin, we all sin.  

Forgive me for focusing on homosexuals and abortionists in my original post – I should not have singled out particular transgressions.  

Jesus teaches us not to condone sin.  We must do our best.  My point should have stressed that twisting scripture to justify sin is just plain wrong.  

Jesus’ miracle of turning water to wine does not justify being a drunkard.  For someone to use that scripture to justify drunkenness is a purposeful act of leading people into sin rather than out of sin.

I pray right along with you for His speedy return!

The Word is not 'progressive'.  "Progressive" is the root of change. The Word never changes.

No, my point is that we are ALL picking out certain sins and pouncing upon them.  There needs be a blending of us and the site you posted, but that is just my opinion.  Christianity is being split in more ways than I care to count.  We're supposed to be working together and we're not.  I count myself in on this and again, I don't know what to do about it.  There's ONE HEAD and a fragmented body.  This is just awful.



 

Of course the Word never changes but the interpretation of His Word does.  Look at all the different denominations.  We have them because of a difference of opinion on what "The Word" means.

 

I'm sure glad I started this thread under [DEBATE].   ;D

I'm not so sure The Body of Christ is all that splintered.  I think that to a mind as shallow as mine it certainly seems splintered - but LOVE will prevail.

Heaven is a big place.  :)

Unfortuantely - so is hell. :'(

I'll agree with you....the Body of Christ is not splintered....but man's attempts at religion are.  It's really amazing (from some points of view) how two (or more) REAL Christians can get along, even in disagreement, simply because they recognize in each other the presence of the Holy Spirit....a witness, as it were.

There are plenty of people out there who claim Christ, or claim the name or title of Christian, when in fact they are selectively choosing what to believe, or what not to believe based on their own desires.

2Ti 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; (4) And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

which is just saying they'll follow whatever tickles their fancy, or cranks their motor, or..............

30,000 denominations and Christianity is not fragmented, huh?

OK

OK?
OK!
 ;D

I absolutely LOVE it when we all agree with me!!!

JudgeNot heading for the hills, incognito...(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/sport/sport-smiley-009.gif)

I have issues with the Mormons who give away Bibles but do not believe that Jesus is God's son.  They talk about Jesus on T.V. and mislead people in believing that they are a Bible believing Church.

I know very little about the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses.  I've learned some things here on the board about them.  I know Bronzesnake and Pastor Roger have a website called "The Fifth Day" with information on the JV's.  I forget if they have anything on the Mormon's.  At the bottom of Pastor Roger's posts you can just click on the blue printed, The Fifth Day.  

I do know they can be misleading to unsuspecting people.  They have a book called The Book of Mormon which they hold in higher esteem than the Bible.  Supposedly, their founder was given "revelations" from God.........this is, I think where the book of mormon came from.

It's been so long since it all was explained to me that I've forgotten it because it wasn't in line with my Christian belief.  I tend to forget something that isn't important.

We have a pretty thorough article on both Mormonism and the JW's as well as a few others.

Bottom line that I’ve been taught:  If a person does not believe Jesus Christ is God then that person is not a Christian.  To be a Christian means knowing that Christ is God.  Neither JW nor LDS (Mormon) fully believe this basic truth.  
Beyond that – the other 30,000 million, gazillion of us who recognize that Jesus Christ IS God and IS the Spirit and only through HIM are we saved; we generally always find a way to keep the Body whole no matter the minor (or sometimes not so minor) congregational doctrine we may wish to practice.  
To me it’s a simple litmus test.
Jesus said it was easy.
I’ve never been in a foxhole – but I bet there are those here (PR?) who will tell you that there are only Christians in a foxhole – not Presbyterians or Methodists or Catholics or Baptist or Adventists or Other – just Christians; the Body of Christ all desperately dependent on the Head.  

I Agree With You Grandma on that

Actually I have never been in a foxhole either. But I know what you mean as I have been in the heat of battle many times. When confronted with such a situation there is no difference.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/troopspray.jpg)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/image002.jpg)

Why does it take a foxhole or something similar to draw us all together?  Why do we tend to get a bit lax or even devisive when we're not in a threatening situation?  Those situations show us we can't do it alone, but once seemingly safe, we tend to think we're in control.  How soon some of us forget!

Thank you for the images, PR - those are indeed telling.
Makes me misty-eyed, it does...

God be with our troops...

Just look at those pictures, will ya.  It's because of these guys and gals that that banner yet waves.  Those guys and gals, and what they represent, bring a tear to my eye.  I'm very grateful to them.  May God, thru Jesus Christ, touch and protect everyone of our troops in Iraq.  Thank You Father for answered prayer.  Amen.

In times like that there is no time for contemplation, pride or anything of that nature. Only the most important things matter. The sinning nature comes out.

Hey guys, I'm hittin' the hay.  
Tomorrow............................................is another day. ;) ;D

Grace and peace,
cris

cris - I don't have an answer.  The nature of man is so fickle... praise Him we have forgiveness through faith, and that we all have a common understanding of Him as the basic center of our being.  I believe the only utopia is heaven and we'll not see utopia until His ultimate return.  That's when the Body will rejoice as a united Body.  What a GREAT day that will be!  

HHmmmphhff!  Go figure.  Here I am - still optimistic after all these years!  Thank you Lord – for showing us (me) that the real value of our lives is interacting with You.  It’s not what earthly things we (I) stand to lose, rather the eternal rewards we (I) have to realize.  Forgive us (me), Lord, for world-induced selfishness.  

Praise You, Lord for hearing this prayer!

Amen.

Hey Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ!

While I've been away from the site, you have been having quite a conversation! :)   I certainly appreciate coming "home" and seeing that you are thinking about and praying about the situation in Iraq.  And I wholeheartedly agree with you about keeping our focus on the Lordship and Diety of Jesus Christ.   Additionally, I agree in prayer for LDS and JW to get revelation of who Jesus really is, and that the blinders are removed from their eyes, and that their hearts are open to accept Jesus' free gift of salvation!

I also consider 'why' we get closer to one another when we are in bad times (foxholes) and then, we get comfortable (and stray...) so soon thereafter...it reminds me of the Children of Israel in the Old Testament though.  I guess human nature never changes.  That is why the Holy Spirit living inside us must be so important--to over-rule humanity.

I've been thinking about Iraq, our military coalition there, and the Iraqi people.  The other day, I ended a fast with communion.  I had not planned communion for the Iraqi people, but as I was literally breaking the bread, I believe the Lord impressed it upon me to take it in intercession for the Iraqi people!  It was a powerful moment.  My 20 year old son and I agreed for the salvation of Iraqi civilians AND revival among the military! ...earnestly praying for a revival among the military, and restoration of relationships between military personnel and the Lord Jesus Christ, earnestly praying for restoration of relationships between Iraqi citizens and the Lord Jesus Christ!  I was greatly encouraged by recently reading "A Table in the Presence" by Chaplain Carey Cash!  Within that book, there certainly is no misleading as to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the authority of the Bible!  My brothers and sisters, I think it is time that we realize we are in the foxhole together----and pray!

People try to recreate God to suit them. They neglect to recreate themselves to suit God. Much of it is vanity.

The progression of God was once delivered for all time and many fail to see it.

ollie

And the Iraqis who after all are the ones we are trying to bring freedom/democrcy to at great expense in lives and material from America. Therefore prayers are needed for both America and Iraq, that God's will be done in this seemingly endless task we have set on ourselves.

ollie

...the Iraqis...are the ones we are trying to bring freedom/democrcy to at great expense in lives and material from America. Therefore prayers are needed for both America and Iraq, that God's will be done...

ollie
 

Ollie,

Wow!  I agree with your prayers!   Wouldn't our Father Lord Jesus Holy Spirit be glorified if homeland America and the deployed military personnel experience revival?  And I trust it is true that the Iraqi people, whom the Lord is calling to Himself, are also being touched by the heart of God!  May we keep praying!

This is indeed a wonderful thread.

The following photo is a picture of some Christian Iraqis worshipping in the open because their church was destroyed.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/iraqisprayin.jpg)


This is one of another Christian church.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/22IRAQ_CHRISTIAN0.jpg)



The following picture is of a Christian church that had just been destroyed by a car bomb. This happened in Nov of 2004.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/randers/22IRAQ_CHRISTIAN0.jpg)


Before the war started in Iraq Christians were left somewhat alone as long as they did not attempt to proselytize.

In the last year Iraqi Christians have become a target of the insurgents (terrorists). Many blame the U.S. for this. The Iraqi Christians have started to proselytize, making themselves more openly known. Between this and the fact that the terrorists want to control the people through fear in an attempt to turn others away from Jesus and against the U.S. is the actual reason behind it.

It has caused many Iraqi Christians to flee the country. Yet there are still others that are staying, refusing to be cow towed.

As SelahJoy and Ollie said we need to be praying for the Iraqi people also.

One more thing that I would like to point out. We also need to pray for the terrorists, that God gives his children complete victory over them in one way or another, hopefully that God opens their eyes and turns them away from their current path.

AMEN.


I've been praying for our troops but had really forgotten to pray for the Iraqi people, whoops.  I do pray that God will cover the US with a web of His angels to prevent any further terrorist attacks.  I also pray that a well will spring up in the US and the streams from it would point to those terrorist cells here in the US, and that they would be brought to justice.

Also, continue to pray for wisdom, courage, strength, guidance, direction, knowledge and discernment for our President, Vice President and their Administration.

Grace and peace,
cris

Amen to that Cris.

Here is some more news on Christianity in Iraq.


Evangelicals building a base among Iraqis
Other Christians, Muslims see threat

By Caryle Murphy, Washington Post  |  June 26, 2005

BAGHDAD -- With arms outstretched, the congregation at National Evangelical Baptist Church belted out a praise hymn backed up by drums, electric guitar, and keyboard. In the corner, slide images of Jesus filled a large screen. A simple white wooden cross adorned the stage, and worshipers sprinkled the pastor's Bible-based sermon with approving shouts of ''Amen!"

National Evangelical is Iraq's first Baptist congregation and one of at least seven new Christian evangelical churches established in Baghdad in the past two years. Its Sunday afternoon service, in a building behind a house on a quiet street, draws a couple of hundred worshipers who like the lively music and the focus on the Bible.

''I'm thirsty for this kind of church," Suhaila Tawfik, a veterinarian who was raised Catholic, said at one service. ''I want to go deep in understanding the Bible."

Tawfik is not alone. The US-led toppling of Saddam Hussein, who limited the establishment of new denominations, has altered the religious landscape of predominantly Muslim Iraq. A newly energized Christian evangelical activism here, supported by Western and other foreign evangelicals, is now challenging the dominance of Iraq's Christian denominations and raising concern from Muslim and Christian religious leaders about a threat to the status quo.

The evangelicals' numbers are not large -- perhaps a few thousand -- in the context of Iraq's estimated 800,000 Christians. But they are emerging at a time that the country's traditional churches have lost their privileged status and have seen their flocks depleted because of decades-long emigration. Now, traditional church leaders see the new evangelical churches filling up, not so much with Muslim converts but with such Christians as Tawfik seeking a new kind of worship experience.

''The way the preachers arrived here . . . with soldiers . . . was not a good thing," said Baghdad's Roman Catholic archbishop, Jean Sleiman. ''I think they had the intention that they could convert Muslims, though Christians didn't do it here for 2,000 years."

''In the end," Sleiman said, ''they are seducing Christians from other churches."

Iraq's new churches are part of evangelicalism's growing presence in several Middle Eastern countries. In neighboring Jordan, for example, ''the indigenous evangelical presence is growing and thriving," said Todd Johnson, a scholar of global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts.

Nabeeh Abbassi, president of the Jordan Baptist Convention, said in an interview in Amman that there are about 10,000 evangelicals worshiping at 50 churches in Jordan.

While most evangelicals in Jordan come from traditional Christian denominations, Abbassi said, ''we're seeing more and more Muslim conversions."

Iraq's Christian population has been organized for centuries into denominations such as Chaldean Catholicism and Roman Catholicism. While Hussein's secular regime allowed freedom of worship, it limited new denominations, particularly if backed by Western churches.

During the US-led invasion in 2003, American evangelicals made no secret of their desire to follow the troops. Samaritan's Purse, the global relief organization led by the Rev. Franklin Graham -- who has called Islam an ''evil and wicked" religion -- and the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, the country's largest Protestant denomination, were among those that mobilized missionaries and relief supplies.

Soon after Hussein's fall, they entered the country, saying their prime task was to provide Iraqis with humanitarian aid. But their strong emphasis on sharing their faith raised concerns among Muslims and some Christians that they would openly proselytize.

Then the security environment deteriorated in Iraq -- four Southern Baptist missionaries were killed, Westerners were kidnapped, and at least 21 churches were bombed -- forcing most foreign evangelicals to flee. But Iraqi evangelicals remain.

''For Christians, it's now democratic," said Nabil Sara, pastor at National Evangelical Baptist. Some church leaders, however, are questioning that premise.

''Evangelicals come here and I would like to ask: Why do you come here? For what reason?" said Patriarch Emmanuel Delly, head of the Eastern rite Chaldean Catholic Church, Iraq's largest Christian community.

In interviews, Delly and Sleiman were torn between their belief in religious freedom and the threat they see from the new evangelicalism. They also expressed resentment at what they perceive as the evangelicals' assumption that members of old-line denominations are not true Christians.

''If we are not Christians, you should tell us so we will find the right path," Delly said sarcastically. ''I'm not against the evangelicals. If they go to an atheist country to promote Christ, we would help them ourselves."

Sleiman charged that the evangelicals are sowing ''a new division" because ''churches here mean a big community with tradition, language, and culture, not simply a building with some people worshiping. If you want to help Christians here, help through the churches [already] here."

 ???

Whoa, I'm not even sure how to respond to this news.  One second I'm reading that it's good, and the next second, I'm not.

I'm thinking (phew, do you smell that smoke? ;D) that what the Evangelicals are doing is going to backfire because of the Iraqi culture.  Or, am I just missing something here?

I had the same reaction to it. I thought wow this is a pretty good thing.  Then I started seeing jealousy, hatred and intolerance popping out. Is this caused by the Evangelicals or is it something inherit amongst the Iraqis from living in so many years of an intolerant govn't? Or as the article says from tight knit families that are intolerant of change in its family structure? Another thing that they are confronted with is that the people were not permitted to openly proselytize.


Whatever the case may be the Evangelicals have their plates full. One advantage in my eyes are that the Evangelicals do not have family ties and therefore can bridge that gap where the current churches there are tied to staying within certain families. So it does have its pros and cons.

Pastor R said: As much as I dislike being the harbinger of ‘sour’ news, we don’t have to go to Iraq to see this kind of non-interaction.  We need to look no farther than this very board.  Satan continually intervenes in our discussions and sews discord between folks who approach our Lord from different directions.  

'Delly' said in the article:  It sounds to me that although Delly doesn’t understand evangelicals, there is a bridge that cannot be burned.  That bridge is the ‘skeleton’ of the Body of Christ.  And when I say “it cannot be burned” I mean just that.  It is a fact we can depend on forever – the Body will never be broken.  If it could, God would not be God.

Maybe my view is overly simplistic.  But I like simple.   ;D  

Me too, and Salvation through Jesus Christ could not be more simple.